Dealing With Difficult People (+ Tried & Tested Ways To Succeed) - Interview with Kate Norris
Kate Norris
Kate started her career as a data analyst and was constantly niggled by the fact that other people weren’t all the same as her; driven by facts and statistics.
She had to learn how to communicate in a way that was meaningful, engaging, and actionable. Now she helps others to bring their data to life through storytelling, beautiful visuals, and confident presentations.
Connect with Kate and learn more about her:
Petra
Hey there, and welcome back to another future of work campus industry Insider. Now, I'm super excited about today's guest, because not only is she one of the best in what she does and couldn't probably ask for a better expert insight. So joining us for today's topic, which is all about dealing with difficult people, especially in group settings. But Kate is also official quite campus member.
Now, what's really interesting with Kate, we've known each other for quite some time, but her background is actually not in facilitation and presentation. Her background is in data analytics. And this is often the stereotype that data experts can talk or can tell stories or have difficulties to present. And this is actually what made her her professional where she is in now.
So she uses a lot of visual communication, and storytelling to actually get data and facts and figures across. So I'm really looking forward to having this conversation on how we can actually get people on the journey, how to deal with difficult people. But then also, what can we do in case something happens online or in offline meetings, because, in fact, it's more important than ever to be able to facilitate conversations, whether you are a leader or not, whether you are a facilitator or not, it's all about connecting IP and interest and input together and get people on the same page. So with no further ado, here is my interview with Kate. Welcome, Kate.
Kate
Thanks, Petra, it's so exciting to be on your podcast. I'm a long time listener since the beginning. So it's really lovely to be a guest. Thank you.
Petra
Well, likewise, I've been on your podcast, which I absolutely love. I don't think I've missed that episode yet. And I couldn't recommend it any further. So maybe just a quick plug, where can everyone find your podcast,
Kate
we live with the presentation boss podcast, we talk about all things presentations, we have interviews with people like yourself, Petra, and people who just have really cool things going on really great exam, experiences and perspectives. And then we have discussions about posts of specific topic.
And then also we look at a speech and break it down, work out what's really working well and what could be improved, which means it's kind of a two in one those format, you get to listen to a TED talk or some speech that we found on the internet, plus a bit of information about it.
Petra
And this is what I love so much, because it's so practical.
And it's real life examples, not theoretical stories or case studies. And this is also where I'm looking forward to today's conversation, because I know you've got a ton of experience and the case that is what you have, you know, lived through over your facilitation career now.
But before we get into all the tips and tricks and tools and fun stuff, how did you get to where you are now? Because you didn't start here?
Kate
I am a very classic data analyst. I started my career in data analytics. And my whole life. I mean, my dad was an engineer, I joined an electrical engineering company, I married an electrical engineer, my friends, my social circle, are all engineers. And that's just kind of how I learned to communicate this really kind of very direct, very statistical facts and figures kind of communication.
And then I was thrown into a completely different environment, like I worked in finance for a while. And that was fine. They were all the same like accountants and all that different engineers. And then I was turning to workplace health and safety. And it was this kind of mishmash team of creatives. And there was only two analysts and the rest were like all these creatives.
I would start talking, and then this there was this woman in my team, Tiffany and she would just go, you got to translate this, you don't even speak in English. I don't know what you're talking about.
It really took me aback because she was really assertive, or she was absolutely lovely. But she was so assertive. She just stopped me in my tracks. I was just like, I don't get what you're talking about. And it was a real moment of having to learn how to communicate with like the creatives and the people who are really different to me, and also being in Workplace Health and Safety and dealing with I mean, it was an electrical engineering company, the electrical distributor here.
The safety side was super high risk, because electricity. And if the safety messages weren't getting through, then it had massive ramifications. So the communication was so imperative and I had to learn how to translate safety statistics into something that people were going to listen to that they were going to understand and that they were going to actually respond to.
So yeah, that that was this kind of multi year journey of going from just speaking to people like myself, and then speaking to people who are different. And now I teach other people who are in that same situation of being more technical, more facts, figures focused and teaching them how to communicate with the nonverbals.
Petra
And this is so relevant, especially in today's world and also the future of work when we talk more about cross functional teams but also globally. teams, people have different language, but also different interpretations. And that's often the translation between take and commercial or take in creative. And one doesn't necessarily understand the other ones.
So having somebody who can translate and get people on the same page is so important if you want to work towards one outcome. And even I can remember from recruitment days when I placed my digital and tech tenants, the first question every client asked, but can they speak English?
And it wasn't necessarily just the English language is literally, to the communicate to start with the talk, or as you know, headphones on and I'm out of here. And then how do you talk? Can I understand it?
Or if I'm dumb when I talk to them, and I think you know, maybe can also touch base a little bit on the technical aspect, because often we throw out acronyms and take like, which the other person is just like, what it was, we also call the brand, building side of things. It's what people remember about you when you make them feel dumb, because you don't understand what you're saying.
It's, it's actually had such a negative impact on you. Can you talk a little bit more about how you actually got to translate the tech language into the normal language?
Kate
Yeah, I think, very confronting moment for me was when again, this the same woman who she said to me:
Making me feel dumb does not make you look smart.
Petra
Gold right there.
But I'm not trying to make you feel dumb. I'm just talking normally. And she's like, Yeah, but it's a different world. I don't get it.
So I think the most important thing is to understand that we are just so different. And something a trap that we can fall into if we are in a specific department, a specific industry, even a specific business, there are so many acronyms, so many terms, even software programs that you just use as part of your day to day vocabulary, that you just then try to like, take into your conversation outside of that little world.
And it just isolates people. And you've got to be really careful and really conscious of when you can use that terminology. And when you can't, and that is a conscious switch that you have to make. You know, we talk in safety, we've got LTE FILTE is our AILR and as soon as you start talking like that, outside people like what is like that is literally a different language to them.
And I've had the same experience on the other side. my stepbrother is a programmer for Google. And he is just like he was born programming.
He is just a genius. And as soon as he starts talking computers and programming, no one can understand him. He now works in like the super technical side of Google, which is where he belongs. But again, like he is he talks in another language and you can't understand him. And it doesn't make me feel it doesn't make him look smart.
It just makes me look dumb. And it makes me not like that conversation. It just so happens that I you know, had to have a relationship with him. But it would have been very difficult to have a relationship with someone who's just speaks another language.
I mean, you've got that you've got two completely separate languages, as well. I imagine you've come across the same thing learning English.
Petra
Yeah. Even just their cultural upbringing. Like, in German. I'm from Austria. So German, it's very straightforward.
The language, there is no thanks, I appreciate it. It's thanks, full stop. And this is nice.
And people, you know, when I started my career, it was just like, do this. And don't bother to go home before 730. It was just very strict.
So when I came to Australia, and I started leading teams, and I was exactly the same people are like crying. And it's like, you can't say hello, do you have to reword this email? I was like, what's wrong?
There's so much more fluff in there. But I didn't realize it's just a different cultural environment. So I also need to adjust if I want to get ahead. It's not how I perceive it, but how others perceive it. So also, you know, when we talk about that, sometimes when we say something, especially the tech language, and people don't understand, instead of them saying, Oh, I'm not quite sure what you say, it can often actually turn into aggression, because that's also a defence mechanism.
And this is where the difficult conversations start. Like, can you talk a little bit more about what we can actually do if we do a to prepare ourselves to the talk, but then also how to handle those push backs and negative feedback?
Kate
I think in if we're talking about presentations, and I don't mean, you know, necessarily like a TED talk, this could just be a project update that you give in a team meeting. That's a presentation.
It doesn't have to be, you know, standing up at the front of the room necessarily. It's just simply speaking to a group. And sometimes you'll have people in that group who push back and it can be seen as aggression, aggression, it can be seen as being a difficult person, it is not necessarily how they intend it to be, which means that we need to deal with it with respect and with tact, because if you just hit back, a, you're not going to look particularly good. And you could really offend them.
If that's not how they intended to come across. If they're simply trying to ask a question, and you've just kind of smacked him with, you're being difficult. It can really not get just them off side.
But everybody else in that room just goes Whoa, well, I'm not going to ask my question now, if that's going to be the response, because I need to really just be careful about making sure that you always respectful of the other person, no matter how difficult you perceive them to be
Petra
so much gold, because you said it's actually it has the ripple effect. It's not just affecting this one person. And you're spot on with the presentation, a team meeting, update, a standard huddle, 10 minutes, that's a presentation because you are informing others. And it's not just about putting data and facts and figures out but also explaining what it actually means for them that everyone is again on the same page.
But if I don't understand the first part, I don't know the second part and then like, but when I'm asking questions, I look, thumbs up better not. And then from there over, the problems actually stem from?
Kate
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I guess when you go back to your actual question is how do you actually start preparing for that, with everything you need to understand your purpose, you need to make sure that you know what you were trying to achieve. With this, let's call it a presentation.
If it's a project update, say, you may just want people to know something, or you may want to assign actions, you need to know what you're trying to achieve by the end. Because if you know what you're trying to achieve, then that means you've got a track that you can stay on. So then if someone tries to pull you off track, you know where to go back on to.
If that makes sense. You've got some sort of path that you're kind of trying to follow. Otherwise, it just becomes too easy for people to hijack you. Um, so I guess there's a couple of types of different scenarios that you might have types of difficult people. I have got a list of them.
And I've kind of named them because we did a podcast episode on it. And we went through them like, Oh, we can assign really kind of funny names to them
Let's talk about probably the one that we've all experienced, and that is the commentator and this is someone like you've got three minutes to get questions in.
They've got a five minutes story to tell.
Petra
Ah, yes, I've just come across all of them.
Kate
Oh, yeah. And you've got, you know, you can see that three other people want to ask questions, but you know, that all this time is going to be not wasted.
But it's going to be spent on this one person who just has this story to tell. And often, this can feel like they're wasting your time.
But it's usually a skill gap. They don't know how to be succinct, and they don't know how to ask what they want to ask. So a very simple way. And I recommend this with just about every situation is indexing. And that means you have to have phrases that are pre-determined that you can bring out when needed.
Because what happens in those situations, if you've got someone who is sparked some sort of emotional reaction, and that could be anger, anger is a very common one. It can make you spike and all you see is read. And you cannot think in that situation. If you're already nervous in a presentation.
That's an emotion and that again, that's what people worried about that they're worried about going blank. It could be confusion, it could be frustration, it could be shame, it could be embarrassment, there's so many emotions that are liable to be struck at any given moment from someone just niggling you that little bit. And you need to not react to that emotion.
You need to have predetermined phrases that you can bring out. So for example, someone who is just talking and talking and talking and you're like, Oh, my God, we're going to run out of time here, you need to very firmly and gently hold up a hand and say, I'm just going to pause you there. What's your question? And that does actually make them stop and think, what is my question and it's a very clear signal. You're going on a little bit long, we need to be a bit more succinct.
You have to balance being assertive and respecting them and the whole meeting and everybody in that meeting.
Alright, so the next one.
This is the worst one you will experience is the sniper.
This is the person who is out to get you. The person who is determined to make you look bad, feel bad.
Prove that they know More than you? Um, I don't know, I don't know what their agenda is sometimes. But again, we've seen this person.
And usually it will. It can be maybe a disgruntled employee, if they are questioning like senior management, maybe. And everybody in the room just goes, Oh, oh, god, I'm so glad it's not me having to deal with it. And this is the one that makes the anger response spike, because you know that they're there just to be in a difficult person.
And again, if you can index and if you can shut that conversation down as quickly as you possibly can, respectfully, again, and the phrase might be something like, thank you for your comments.
We'll discuss this later. Thank you for your comments, send me an email about it.
That’s probably the most assertive. Thank you for your comment. It's not appropriate right now. And that is a very clear signal that I'm not going to engage with this. I'm not going to continue and go back and forward with you.
Petra
I love the addition, not right now, because it's less harsh than this is not appropriate. Because it might be appropriate, but not in this setting. And it's in that context.
Kate
Yeah, and I cannot think of that in the moment because I am an emotive person. And I get that, that response that you know, frustration, anger, confusion, embarrassment, I get that. And I can't think in the moment. So if I don't have those responses kind of there ready to go? Then I'm screwed in the situation.
So it's, there's no point kind of, you know, listening to this podcast and going, Okay, yep, I've got my phrases, you need to look at them as you walk into those meetings. And I've got a list on my phone of indexed phrases that I can just flick through and get okay.
Yep, that's right. That's what I need to have in the back of my pocket, ready to throw out when needed. It's the same with jokes. Yeah, like, I've got a little joke file. If I go into a meeting, and you're just some one liners that are possibly appropriate, helps you be funny. It's the same helps you be assertive. If you've got those index file indexed phrases, ready to go.
Petra
What a good tip, it all comes down again to preparation because ideally, you want to memorize it, but then you're taken out of surprise with the statement is like, Oh, I should be written up.
Or I should be this and this. So the more you can prepare for it, and even just a quick jog of memory, saying, Oh, yeah, I could say this. And this, we're good to go. It also gives them more confidence. And with and you're showing up very differently. Amazing. Yes.
Kate
Yeah, absolutely.
Petra
So who is next?
Kate
Who's next? Um, let's go with the correct story.
Most people will have had this experience when they're presenting some sort of facts, statistics, numbers, something. And I'll give you an example. I was in a large meeting, there was about 60 people that I was presenting safety statistics to.
And I said the LTI FL for this month is 2.5. And then I started to continue and someone went
‘Hang on, hang on, hang on.’
I'm pretty sure it's 2.54.
Okay, I know that it's 2.5.
But I'm not going to get into this discussion.
And I said, No, it's it's 2.5.
And he said, Well, no, because we did our calculations and like the way that you calculate LTI.
I should actually clarify, last time injury frequency, right. It's like the number of injuries that we've had I’ve just realized, I'm like telling you not to do this, and I'm doing the exact same thing. It is the number of injuries that you have multiplied by 1000 divided by the number of hours worked.
It sounds like a simple calculation. And that's what you can start arguing about is the calculation.
Whereas if you look at the number of hours work that takes into account sick leave, paid work, overtime, we were a emergency organization. So you've got emergency response. There are so many parts that make up that calculation.
And it is so easy to get into that discussion about how your number was reached, why your number is correct. And all that does is a takes you off track B questions, your credibility and how you're actually doing your job.
It really bores people, because that's not the purpose. The purpose is not to discuss the number. If I look at that presentation, it was something that goes up or down?
Are we doing better in our safety this month, or are we doing worse? So again, having the index rise. I will check the numbers when I get back. I'm pretty sure that's correct, but I will check the point is our numbers have Going up, which means we're doing something right now, what are we doing right?
And you start going off on to, again the purpose, and getting back on track. And I did make the mistake at the time of arguing the number. And I didn't get to finish my presentation because my time slot was up. And I felt like a goose. Yeah, and people will come across that person all the time of correcting, what their numbers are, what's on their slides, what they say. Again, it's embarrassing, because your credibility is being questioned.
Petra
And again, this has a ripple effect, because then all of a sudden, you question yourself, Am I doing the right calculation at this? And this is where I get off track with your own train of thoughts.
You actually can't get to the end result, because, yes, maybe it has a big impact, then point four in the big grand scheme.
But in the moment, it doesn't, because it might be just an element of the presentation. It leads to a much bigger picture, and you didn't get that across and it, it then has a much bigger ripple effect when you go back to the team when you go back to realisation when you get past in a project because there will always stuck in your head.
Kate
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And actually, the person that I take the most inspiration form from here is Dr. Carl, I don't know if you've ever listened to the science hour with Dr. Carl. No.
He's just this scientist, awesome guy who does an hour of science on Triple J each week. And people bringing asking science questions, and he answers as best he can. And sometimes he comes back on the next week.
And he's like, you know what I said this last week. And it actually is this obvious, slightly incorrect, just want to fix that up.
If you admit your mistake, correct it then the more that you say, the more confidence that people are going to have in you because you are willing to go back and correct what you've said, and make sure that your work is accurate.
Petra
Hmm. And it's key because everyone makes mistakes. And sometimes you just confuse those facts or figures or insights with something else. It wasn't quite intention. That's a great tip, just own it up and address it as quickly as we can and not leave it until six months down the track. And then it's already created some more issues.
Kate
That's it, you don't need to be right, you need to be accurate. That's my philosophy.
Petra
This is tweet right there.
Kate
All right, the last one, we're going to go with just the Rambler.
This is the person who just wants to say something. And they start talking. And you're not sure what they're saying?
They don't really have a question. They're not really adding into anything. But they just need to have their voice heard. A great example of this is q&a. If you ever watch it's like the political ABC program, and someone just stands up, and they want to have their say,
And oh, gosh, I can't remember the guy who runs I think it's Mark someone anyway, he will say to them, thank you, we'll take that as a comment and moves on. Because the awkward thing is we can send it and kind of go,
And again, it's easy to delve into their conversation and to go off onto their track. But then you know that it's not necessarily what you want to talk about. But moving on can be difficult unless you've got that phrase there that can call. Okay, you've had you say,
let's move on.
Thank you for that. We'll take it as a comment. This can be used as well, if someone has an irrelevant question, or an aggressive question.
What do you say about people who just don't have the qualifications for their next job, and they're still trying to apply for them?
You're like:
Well, we're not talking about that today. Thanks for your comment. We'll take it as a comment. Actually, today, we're talking about how you don't need qualification or whatever
You know, you would talk about whatever you want to get back on track with. I think I totally stopped up then an analogy but doesn't make sense.
Petra
As we go through all the types, I'm thinking of so many clubhouse rooms that I have been in recently, because in the emphasis of facilitation on steroids, because you don't know who's coming who don't know what they're going to say, and you have to respond.
There's nothing you read and you can't prepare. And I think this is actually the quickest way to learn all of that. Because if you go into an organization or trying a new team, or whatever it might be, you also don't know who you're dealing with in the end. So the more you can practice it, the better you become. So they're amazing tips and you find all those people everywhere. They're just yeah, if this would be you know, mathematical distributions.
You all have them and it's so good how you classify them that we can also see how do we deal with these people, because it also gives us more confidence to say, this is definitely the one who is waffling on. And this is definitely the one who's, you know, but I'm preparing your head, what am I going to say?
So, you know, I can also kind of protect myself. And yeah, I think the purpose, like what you're aiming to do is stay in control of the situation, stay respectful, and make sure that you're not making them or yourself, feel or look bad.
Yes, this is a big, big thing, because again, it has a ripple effect from others, because they might think I'm better not saying anything, because I don't want to look better, or whatever it might be now and staying on this topic, actually, with clubhouse and so forth.
Over the last 12 months. Clearly, we've seen the shift from offline and in person events and conferences and meetings to online.
Now, is there a difference?
And also, are there some tips and tricks how we can get people back on track without maybe muting them or moving them away?
Or kicking them out of the room? Addison?
Kate
I mean, obviously, it's a hugely different world, online and offline. I think when you're offline, when you're in a room with people, people have to be pretty openly rude to sit there and play with their phone. And you can see them doing it. And they know that they're being watched.
So they will sit there and they will watch and listen out of politeness. Whereas online that could be, you know, scrolling Facebook, and you'd have no idea. Like, you'd be nodding along smiling, you'd have no idea.
You're competing with literally the entire internet. And trying to keep people engaged and focus is extremely difficult. We're saying it gets a little bit harder.
No, it's insanely harder.
It really is.
Because also you don't have that peer pressure of people around in the audience to stay focused, and you don't have you know, like, if you've got someone sitting next to you, and they're really focused, there's a part of you that says, Well, he's really interested, maybe I should listen, because it's, it's clearly interesting.
Whereas, if you don't have that, and everyone else is kind of just staring, looking like a blank fish at the screen, even if they're engaged or not, you can't tell that they're interested. It's a hugely difficult format.
And I think we hear over and over about interaction, you've got to have more interaction, you've got to be more engaging.
But how do you actually do that?
Because we only hear you have to do it, you have to do it, how?
How do you do it?
And I think it's more than just asking questions, you've got to use your technology better, you've got to be using the poll function in zoom, more people know that they want different, but they don't know what they won't necessarily, because they don't know what they don't know.
For example, I'm running a workshop in a couple of weeks, and it's going to be a choose your own adventure. I've got six modules that I need to run.
In the past, I would probably have just run them we'll do number one first, and then number two, and then number three, it's linear, it's monotonous, it's a bit predictable.
Whereas if you say, Alright, we've got these six, what are you guys interested in? We don't have to do all six.
What do you want to do and have a vote, and then go into the topic that most people are interested in. Because of no interested in module one.
Don't set them up, don't start them by going well, we have to get through this, we just have to, you don't have to find what they're interested in and delve into that. And if they don't want to do module two at all, then that's okay.
That's actually okay. It is better to not do something that people are not interested in, then try and force them to learn something to be involved in something that they just don't want to. I mean, obviously, there's exceptions, if there's, you know, mandatory training, but if you've got a meeting, or a workshop, or any sort of any sort of forum, that you've got different things that you want to talk about, don't think that it has to be linear.
And there's Yeah, there's so many different ways that you can do, like I said, polls and in zoom, you've got breakout rooms a great in a room of 20. It's very easy to hide. It is not so easy to hide in a breakout room of three. You get people talking, it took me actually a little while to come around to breakout rooms. I'm all about them now. But I didn't like them at first.
So I think do if you aren’t sure about them, give them a couple more chances, it does work really well. And with your PowerPoint, you need, again, not just a linear outline.
Petra
That make sense I so much sense and so much gold also, because in what you're saying it's all about collaborative input.
Because if you're not engaged, if you have switched off from radio, say, Oh, this is boring, nothing will stick and the result is zero.
So you're just wasting time, energy, money and all of the above. So just giving people also more choice and also giving them the voice and being part of the journey gives you a raise much more buy in, whether you are a leader, your facilitator, or your project leader, you don't need to officially have the title of leader or facilitator to help people to have this power of getting people along the train.
Because the better then the more they know about it, the better they feel about it, the more you put in and the better results are.
Kate
Yeah, for sure. There's a term that I heard unconference
So basically, the they've been around forever, apparently, since like the 1800s. Basically, this is a forum where you go to a conference, and then people choose what they learn about.
Petra
Awesome, because this is in, in trend. Also, when we talk about micro credentials, you learn on demand, what's relevant for you not in case.
And this has such a big impact, because there's so much information, so much knowledge, it can be overwhelming. And the same is with those conferences, if you cannot know everything.
And if you waste time on something that you don't need at the moment, that's not interesting for you. Like, what are the chances that you went by anything of that?
Kate
Yeah, that's it. Because people are not there for knowledge. You can get knowledge anyway.
Petra
Yes. What are they coming for?
Kate
Yeah, they're coming for experience and wisdom.
Petra
There's a saying you come for the content, but you stay for the community.
So it's also a connection with each other the conversations that are going on the wisdom that people sharing through their stories, so so spot on, it's not trying to be the smartest to educate the heck out of it. But facilitating conversations?
Kate
Yeah, for sure. So I think I think there's going to be, it will continue to evolve. And this kind of interaction will continue to be more and more commonplace. I think. I know, even at schools and universities now the way that things are being taught is different.
And as those next generation enters the workforce, they're going to expect something completely different.
They're going to start to run things completely differently. I mean, why millennials were not the young ones anymore in the workplace, as you know, eight years of Gen Zed already in the workplace, and they are expecting something more engaging, more succinct, more experienced based than just knowledge because they can get knowledge anywhere, they literally grew up with the internet, you know, we say that we grew up with the internet, we didn't really, like I got dial up in, like, I was grade four or something.
I didn't have proper broadband until high school. Whereas my daughter can use Tick Tock now, I mean, I don't I don't let her just to clarify. But you know, she, she can get on my phone and start playing with all my apps. And she knows exactly how to do them all. She's seven. My son, he's almost two, he understands how to scroll, he understands how to use a phone. This is what we've got coming into the workforce in much quicker than we're gonna realize.
Petra
Exactly.
And also, you know, there's a reason why reels and tick tock videos are so captivating, because in 15, or 30 seconds or maximum 60 seconds, you can get so much content information across but in an entertaining way.
This is what you said ‘experiences’: the things in those videos are experiences when we dance and point and you know, do whatever, it's still more fun than saying, so we're learning one, two, and three, you know, people have switched off already.
The second you say Today we are learning…, whereas they know how to capture attention by say, don't make these mistakes.
Or if you why your audience doesn't listen to you, or whatever it might be, they capture your attention with such a catchy headline, then they give you the top tips and then they're out again.
And as I said, this is what we are dealing with and competing within the workforce. The attention spans are shorter, so how can we keep them engaged and simply by having those polls getting them into breakout rooms? getting them involved in a concentration is gold here?
Kate
Yeah, for sure. And absolutely get I'm involved and learn from them. Yeah, I think this is a bit close to my heart because as you know, I was a millennial obviously coming into the workforce, and there was so much pushback from the older generations that you don't know anything, you don't contribute anything, get and do your time, you have to be here for 10 years before you can contribute, do your time.
That's not how it works anymore. Except that we know that when you come in into the workplace was so much more than the generation before and it's the same thing we have to understand the amount that Gen Zed now knows, is more than when you say learn from them. And I hope I hope that I have the humility to probably learn from them and not push back because they younger.
Petra
Yes. And this is also what keeps us relevant in this fast changing world of work, the curiosity, the beginner's mindset, and finding something that you're interested in that you continuously want to learn about it.
This is also what gives you a bit of a litmus test as to are you on the right track with it, because there are always iterations, they're always changes, and sticking with something that worked yesterday or last year, and then the algorithm change, and we've got this change coming, it's not going to work anymore.
So you're going to fall behind very quickly. If you're not embracing that, learn from each and read each other. It doesn't matter what senior level, they are truly level. Everyone's got their own experiences and insights.
Kate
Yeah, for sure.
Petra
Incredible. Well, this was such an awesome conversation. Kate, where can everyone find you learn more about you and stay in touch with you? Yeah,
Kate
I guess search for me on LinkedIn, just Kate Norris, and my website presentation boss.com.au. And that's basically where I hang out is LinkedIn and my website. Yeah, and of course, the presentation boss podcast, as well. We're just about up to 100 episodes in two weeks.
Petra
Incredible. And, again, there's so many valuable resources in this podcast and so many learnings already. So highly recommend to subscribe and not miss anything. Ideally, binge listened to all of their previous episodes, because there's so much gold there.
Kate
Can I tell you about my biggest recommendation for an app,
Petra
Please.
Kate
This changed my world. Most people have audible and pay the, like $17 a month. There's an app called borrowbox. Do you know it?
It is a library app. So you subscribe, not subscribed, you sign up using your library details. So if you're with whatever library you're with, I'm with Brisbane City Council. And you just sign in using your library card number. And you have access to all of the audio books from the library?
Petra
No way.
Kate
Yep. So I have listened to that many. I mean, there's novels. But there is a massive business section because I cannot afford to download all of the books from audio from audible each month that I want.
Whereas borrowbox has huge resources I listened to like Michelle Obama's book, or what else is that Bernie Browns data leads there. You've got talk like Ted Seth Godin books, there are so many books available, all for free. And if you're not getting quite enough from audible if you need more than you can download each month on Audible, because I listened to about 12 or 13 audiobooks a month. So borrowbox is just phenomenal. It is the best app that you will download.
Petra
Amazing. I always love new tools and tips and tricks and episode definitely put that also in the show notes. Thanks so much for the recommendation, all the wisdom that you shared. So we're looking forward to where you take it to the next level in 2021 and beyond.