Write Your Own Script: Leverage The Power Of Storytelling For Pivots & Pitches [Interview with Luke Wheatley]
Petra
Welcome back to your brand your future, you are in for a special treat, because we are joined by a guest who have known for many years.
And he's always been a standard, since they thought for not only his creativity, especially his way of looking at things differently, but then also being able to package it into different content types and shapes plus then communicating and pitching it to different stakeholders.
Luke
Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for having me. I mean, me too.
Petra
So we've known each other for many years. And we used to work for the Subway marketing team, you were agency side, I was client side. And basically, we were travelling around Australia, visiting different boards, crazy times back then. And the goal was to always visit those local boards and sell international strategy. Yeah.
And one of the standouts for me about he was always said, even though we had to communicate the same message to get everyone across the line, you always communicate it in a different way to every board, like how does he do this?
And, you know, since then you've had a crazy, incredible successful career, always in marketing and concentration, but it didn't start it. So for everyone who hasn't come across you, can you give us a brief background as to what are you doing now? And how does your diverse background to say the least benefits you in what you're doing at the moment?
Luke
Yeah, wow, what a question. Okay, so I am the co-founder of in three production, which is our creative production company, we like to call ourselves a creative production company, because we do more than content. And we do more than creative, we kind of look at things from a marketing perspective and try to solve real problems that a business may be trying to solve creatively.
And it's about trying to make every dollar count. And it's all about trying to make the connection to the audience who the who try and target as best as it possibly can be. So that's what we're doing now.
But my background has been pretty diverse. I started off in natural health, movies my way into feature films where I was doing marketing, and then I ended up being the head of acquisitions for magnet Pacific, which was Australia's largest independent film distributor.
Very lucky, that's a travel well, to get all the film festivals and all around the world, read scripts and decide to buy films that we would then have the distribution rights in Australia and New Zealand. So we worked on films between 20 to about $150 million budgets, and works with all the big studios. So it was a really good development time for me, because I could see people far smarter than me in the room, and how they held themselves in meetings and also how their credit strategy.
And it actually helped really put things clear in my mind about how you communicate.
The GFC, hit back way back. And that's where I left and then I joined agency right solutions, working with subway with yourself, Petra.
And so I was there for five years. And then I in the last six years, I was the head of creative content and brand marketing for Flight Center. There I managed upwards of 70 staff, but primarily is 35 staff. And we did everything from content strategy, crave strategy and brand strategy for Flight Center.
But also we looked at other brands as well within the fight certain travel group. So we looked at the travel associates corporate traveller, cruise about escape travel student flights, so all up I think, at the time about 18 brands. So it was always about how to look at things differently. How do you tell a different story to the same audience for different brands, they're all travel brands.
And it all came down to being creative and listening and really segmenting the target audience and understanding what their trigger points were and communicate to them. But one of the things was how do I you know, communicate the same message to different people. I've always decided in my life that even though I know that presentation, and we did the same presentation 10 or 15 times within a space of two weeks, I knew it was the first time that that person had heard that news.
And so I wanted to make sure that I probably presented it the best I possibly could to that person and also read the room. And some people like to be told news in a way that might be informal. Some people like to get to be to be delivered quite factual and a lot of data driven information. And so I got to learn these boards and also, you know, from years of presenting, reading the room really quickly and understanding how is this person going to receive communication from us.
Petra
You've dropped so many golden nuggets, there's so much to unpack there. Because you said you're looking after you were looking after so many brands and watch me talk about company brands. The same actually also applies to your personal Because you've pivoted in your career so many times, and you are still far from being done, from what I can see,
Because you're always looking at things differently. And you know, what I see one of your strengths is definitely, you see an opportunity, and you're able to create something commercially out of it may be a role may be content, whatever it might be.
And this is one of the future of work skill sets, sets that we read, between the lines, what's happening in the industry and the economy, but also being able to pick up on those stakeholders what they actually want. Now, when we talk about positioning and branding, what would you describe brand to be or a position to be? Have you got a description for it? Or how do you go about it?
Luke
So I think brand is not what you tell people. But what people think of you, that to me, and that doesn't matter if it's a person, or if it's a company or a product that you're trying to sell, you can say whatever you like about yourself, or your product or your brand, it doesn't matter. It's what you actually deliver to make that person think what that brand actually is. So that to me is brand new, it's it's about being consistent in your message. It's about being true to who you are, and not trying to be doing things that aren't true to yourself, and therefore, against your own brand.
So that when someone sees work that you've done, or you're about to do, they actually know that that's something that you should do. So if someone sees some work that I've done, and that it doesn't have my name on it, I would like to think that people would assume that I've done it, because it's got the kind of work that I would do, how I'm how I look at things differently.
And I'd kind of go and then when someone says, oh, Luke did that, and go, Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Of course, he did. You know. So for me, it's about being consistent, knowing what you're really good at. And just laser focused on that.
Petra
I love it. And it's basically the promise of the gift. And this is why strong brands are so strong: because they constantly deliver an outcome they were expecting. And this is also the same with a personal brand promise, if you are constantly lazy and late and never deliver or very bad delivery, this is also a brand
Luke
And no matter what you do after that, that's what you're going to be known as by those people. And that's a really unfortunate thing.
You can do one good thing.
But you if you do five things consistently bad, that's what you're going to be known for.
So it's about consistency. It's about what do you do day in, day out?
If you make a mistake, and everyone makes a mistake, I've made so many mistakes in my life, in my career and at work, because how can you not, you have to own up to those mistakes, because you can't just reward yourself on your on your successes.
And that's fine.
But social media in particular is that if you see, you know, LinkedIn, or Instagram or even Facebook, people already put out their best stuff. You know, not many people are that willing to kind of say, this is where I've failed and learn. And that's a really hard thing to do. And I'm not saying you have to do that.
But it certainly helps. When you're working with people, if you've made a mistake, you own up to it straight away and say, This is what's happened. This is why it's happened. And this is how we're going to fix it.
So always have a solution to the problem, but certainly owning up to it. And I think that's a really strong brand position for anyone.
Petra
It certainly is. And it also shows the genuine approach of it. And in the end, if you want to grow, you need to make mistakes, because you are going into territory that you haven't explored yet.
So how could you know? And by sharing the journey, and also the learnings, not necessarily when you are in the midst, and you're not sure how to manage it, but you know, what are you doing to make it better again? or what have you done already? This is where the power story also comes in?
Luke
Yes. Also, I have to say like, one of the things that I one of my pet peeves is in a meeting, and someone will say an acronym or a time or they'll use a word that people may not know what that means on the first person to actually say, Quito, that means I actually have a thirst for knowledge. And I'm a curious person by nature.
So if I don't know something, I'll actually say I don't know something in a meeting. And it's a really powerful thing that you can do.
And it doesn't matter what level you're at. If you're a junior you just started or you're an executive. If you don't know something in that meeting room, you should definitely be asking what Tell me more about that.
What does that mean?
You should not should not be afraid to be asking questions, it actually helps your brand. And it helps who you are as a person because you'll learn and grow instead of pretending you know, something that you may not know. I have been in, you know, executive level meetings. And I can tell you that's how a good executive works. If I know sign I'll ask I'll ask the person in the room to explain what that means. So if at that level, they're doing it, you can do it too.
Petra
Exactly. That's the saying if you want to have better answers, you need to ask better questions. Yeah, so many are afraid of being seen as silly or incompetent if they don't know something. But in the end, this is also I think one of your strengths, to be creative, simply asking questions.
And I remember it was a long time ago when I asked you about it your strength, and you said, I'm a creative, but not a creative creative. I'm not good with coming up with the details, but I'm seeing the bigger picture. And this is also something I think, really important to hone in on. You don't need to be a graphic designer to call yourself creative. Everyone is creative. Now, you say you're asking a lot of questions. Is there another way how you stay curious and spark your creativity?
Luke
Oh, well, I'm reading all the time listening to podcasts. I'm talking to people, you know, not necessarily just asking questions, I mean, but I'm talking to people, I'm trying to meet people who are smarter than me who might know something that I don't know.
And I'm not trying to just, you know, suck the information out of them, either. I generally want to have a friendship with them or something. But it's about asking people and having a network of people that you can talk to and ask questions and keep learning. I think that I would be so disappointed myself if I was at my plateau right now. And I wasn't going to keep learning and keep developing because that would be I feel quite disappointing. I think you got to keep going.
And it's not about you know, new technology. Yeah, I'm super interested in new technology. But it's about new ways of thinking new ways of talking to people, new ways of communicating to people, our business. ethos is that we want to tell interesting stories. That's our that's our ethos of our business.
And drove from, I don't care for selling toothpaste, travel, or the latest sports car, I will find the heart that story with the people that I work with, to tell an interesting story to connect. And that's what it's all about. I remember a long time ago, you posted a question, and you said, explain what you do to a five year old?
And my answer was, I tell stories. And that's all I do. I tell stories, and it's been a an exact levels, I'll still be telling stories to connect with that those executives to get them to agree to a strategy that I believe is the right thing.
And again, I guess I've been lucky, I've you know, I had a lot of rejection as well. And we talked about this a bit too, like rejection is I think, is part and parcel people just see success. But I had I did a content strategy where I believed that Flight Center should do a travel series.
Why wouldn't one of the world's biggest travel companies have their own travel show, instead of paying for influences and paying for sponsoring other travel shows, I was rejected five times from the business, they kept saying no, I would just read pitch back into the business about two months later, every time.
So it probably took me almost a year to get that approved. And we ended up doing two seasons of a travel series, all done internally by our team battles because I kept going, and I knew I was I knew I was onto something.
And I knew something different. And it was a unique way of positioning the brand. It was all about telling an interesting story, showcasing our people in fantastic destinations, and also only half an hour of uninterrupted airtime on TV. So it's actually a marketing strategy, content strategy, but also crave.
Petra And this is a great seqway because in the end that storytelling is the most the one and only way to communicate to make a person or service or a product stick. This is what we remember, it's the most powerful way to communicate.
And also, when we talk about the career progression, a future of work is all about changing not only jobs, but careers more often.
So how can you pitch yourself in a way that makes sense to the decision maker, coming from a completely different industry of background to now wanting to do you know this professional, and it comes down to you being able to tell your story. Now, can you give us a little bit of a framework or some ideas how we can start with our personal brand story?
Luke
I mean, yeah, so yeah, I mean, that's the thing I've done across different industries. And it's always been like convincing that person or that business that whilst I have no experience in film, right now, you got to trust that I can do this. And it came down from showing passion, interest and actually researching a company before I went in there, but about saying your own personal brand against lack consistency.
So it's about what is it that you want to tell people about you?
What is it that it's about you and so if you are someone that let's say you do want to make videos you want to film and right now, that's not what your job is.
That's fine.
You also have two days out of the seven days that you can go and do that and start showing people your skill set by going out and doing it yourself. It's all about showing who you are.
So you know, start seeding out that information. And start, even if you can do in your own job, do it in your own personal life and start showing that on your professional, you know, social network. So that I that's, that's how I truly believe that like, if you really have the passion, you want to do something, you start showing people what it is that you want them to believe you can do.
Petra
That's so powerful, because in the end, we're buying into people and not their credentials, you know, we can't compete on PhDs and years of experience, there will always be somebody smarter, more experienced, more educated than us.
But what makes us stand out is exactly what he's just mentioned, passion, interest, and also taking initiative, doing something before anyone else tells you to do, and we're not raised, we can move and we have to move.
And you also said, I hope I'm not at the pinnacle of my career. Because in the end, we can always stay relevant by moving and evolving in our career. Otherwise, if we're not learning, we are dead already. Now question, something comes much quicker to, you know, the what's the saying, We ride the wave rather than being crushed by the wave, and what's currently happening. And you've experienced that now, actually twice with the financial crisis. And now with COVID, that's your role has been made redundant, or you've been slowed down. So you had to reinvent yourself?
Luke
Absolutely. So I mean, COVID. So here's my story. Here's my COVID story. So I know everyone's got one. But this is my COVID story. So my COVID story is, it was in, I was actually went to LA in February, with my family had a family holiday. And while I was there, I actually pitched to Universal Studios. So I got myself into a meeting with Universal Studios. to pitch to them some ideas that I wanted, I want to make some TV shows and feature films. So I actually had a half hour meeting with one of the head of a head of acquisitions of Universal Studios, had the meeting went for two hours went fantastic.
They actually took interest in three of the projects that we pitched to them wasn't a signed deal, but it was a really good start. So we float fire home, start hearing about this COVID thing, and saying bit more interest when it was all going pretty bad. But by I think March 23, a whole team. And pretty much I think that apes in other fights and our workforce was still down along with a lot of Australians.
So here I am. In February, I was in LA but to be making all these like maybe TV shows for Universal Studios to on their own home, no job stood down.
We didn't even know if we're gonna get income for because what was it called job keeper wasn't even a thing then. However, I was also we got sold out on a Friday. We were meant to be in Disney World filming in two days time. So we had to cancel flights. Some other people in my team were going to what they had to cancel their flights.
We had to stop all these productions. We had the biggest plan for 2020 for font center. We had all these shoot filming plans, we had realized just 2020 was going to be an amazing year for Flight Center.
Here I am at home like all my team, we're all at home like all of us. Yeah, all at home. by that is, I had a few days off. You know, I was actually feeling pretty sorry for myself, I think most of us were, no one knew what was going to happen.
I thought it's gonna be a week, two weeks, we probably go back to work. I mean, that's how silly I was. And I thought maybe Junior new financial year, everything will be fine. Give the give the country a little while to kind of, you know, come back.
When we got to June and it hadn't happened. I knew my job was never going to go back to find center. I just knew that it was gone for too long. And the business was never going to need all the people back. Because I restructure it and better for the business. So I decided I need to start doing something.
So I started reaching out to people. And I would I created a list of people I needed to talk to. And I would contact 10 people a day to try to get work from them, like in a credit production company. So I got probably hundreds of rejections. And it wasn't until November until I got my first really big job of I did the Brisbane City Council breeze better campaign which was I was very lucky with the TV ad 14 videos, nine content stories, blogs, photography is a really big job from public from publicists worldwide. So we're doing little jobs. But that was a big job that really got us going.
And then from there, we've and then fire them brought me back to do their global brand and we haven't stopped from there. We are now working with Flight Center. We're working with TQ.
We're working with a whole bunch of other brands as well. So it was a tough time and you know, you go through this like wave of emotions of I don't know if I'll ever have work again. I don't know what's going to happen because what's gonna happen in the world. I'm even now still I mean, Sydney and Melbourne are still locked down and it's terrible. I hope that the country does bounce back. I got my job yesterday, my first one.
So I'm looking forward to them. My second one to be fully vaccinated. And I think that it was tough, but it was actually character building.
Petra
Yeah, 100%. And it's also, it's what it's called a sign of its time. It's Yes, it's COVID. Now, but then it could be technology, they could be whatever we don't know. And there's even some research that shows that even high investment companies like mining, for example, that changed every 75 years, they're now changing between seven and 10 years. And industries like retail, they're changing and evolving every two years just to keep up. And that means our skill set that we need in order to meet the changed consumer demand that also evolves. And if we are not growing and changing and pivoting, we already behind so absolutely. Nobody can rely on job security, or the one job the one career.
Luke
I mean, I went to class, and I said, you know, $40 billion company that's in, you know, 18 countries you think is a pretty, pretty stable job. And, you know, unfortunately, a health crisis like this happens, and there's nothing you can do all sort of sudden, the other day, and they're asking me if I could, what would I do to help them create content that was targeting younger people?
Now, I'm not a young person, per se. So my answer really was there. And then being really honest, and saying, Yeah, I'm not young, but what I can do is come up with stories and help create it. But I'd actually bring in people who are younger than me to help bring that story to life for you and, and actually get them buy in before we even pitch it back to you.
And I think it's about knowing what your ability is, and what you're part of that that the cycle is. And so I know that I can come up with the stories and the ideas, and I can support that. But I also know that it's when it's time you bring in the right people to help you. Because you got to be honest. And you've got to be able to deliver what, above what people expect.
Petra
I love it. And there's the saying you need personal branding is all about analysing and amplifying, it's not about doing or being something you're not, it's about clarifying what is it that makes you can bring to the table. Because the self-awareness part is what gets you the best results. Because you know who you need to be surrounded by to complement your strengths and your weaknesses. But if you don't know it, if you as a leader, don't know what you can bring. So we can't get results, you will never be a good leader, because you don't know what you actually need from others.
Luke
Yeah, I mean, and empathy is a really big thing as well. You know, it's difficult somehow there's, there's ego involved, but you try to be as empathetic as you possibly can. I mean, when I was leading 35 people in the team, you've got to make a decision that's best for those the five people in total, not those 3435 individuals, and that sometimes can be a really difficult decision to make, because you're not making behalf of this person, or as a family, you're making them after the 35 people.
So you have to make a decision where you lose five people, you know, just like Flight Centre had to make a decision to lose 80% of their workforce to keep the business going. They made the right decision because they kept the workforce going on that 20%.
And they bought and therefore other people back. It's about, you've got sometimes you got to make the right choice, you've got to make a decision on behalf of the business or the people in general, not just one person, which is it's difficult.
Petra
Absolutely. But this is, again, one of your strengths, you'll see the bigger picture. This is what makes you good. I would say creative strategy is not necessarily the executer, who does exactly,
I have I done in the past. And that's where I know it. But um, I know that's not my strength.
And that's the only way how to figure it out by doing it. And so many are afraid of quote unquote, going the wrong path. Because that might be not what you want. But in the end, you don't know what you don't know. And you can think of what you're really good. So you need to experience and explore it.
Luke
Yeah. And it's okay to say, this is not for me, it's okay, also, to change your mind. And it's okay to go on a completely different tangent and think, you know, I never thought that I want to be a chef and you go off and become a chef, because that's actually a passion you decide later in life. That's what you want to do. And I think that's, I mean, you, you, Petra, you've done the same thing you've pivoted a lot in your career. And, you know, when I first met you, you're on your trajectory of corporate, you know, marketing and we're really going down that path and look, look where you are now.
And if you would just say to yourself, you know, eight years ago, if that's what you're going to do, you probably would have laughed but because sometimes it seems impossible that you can change, but you can it just takes baby steps, you know, to get where you are now, you didn't just turn around and do this. You had to get there by making mistakes, just like I've made so many mistakes and moving more forward than you do backwards and just just picking yourself up when you make a mistake and just dust it off and keep going But that's how you really look back six months later, and you say, Wow, I'm now here, six months ago, I was over there.
That's because you kept going, and you're consistent. And you, you knew where you want to go.
Petra
And this is also what made you so successful. You got one rejection after the other.
But also, when you get the fifth rejection, you didn't give up because you truly believed the potential in the idea. And this is, I think, also, what makes a difference. If we get something across the line, even our selves and not, are we confident enough because people buying our competence, but they buy more. So our confidence, if we're not quite sure if it's the right thing to do. Well, everyone else will tell him to
Lukw
Absolutely. And I was very lucky, I had really great leaders, you know, downright was a fantastic leader. And whilst he rejected my ideas, he was always always made time for when I would reposition my idea. So and that's a fantastic leader to have, who would say no, this is why it's no, but then let me come back and actually hear me again.
You know, and I've also been spraying myself with some people who are smarter than me better than me, who I can learn from. And that's the same as my team. When I was at Flight Center, I had a really great structure of people around me that I trusted, you know, Kristen Bonner, and Christy Aikens were two people who I had full trust in, they had trusted me, and they helped support you, because you can't be perfect.
And so you look for people who can compliment you not emulate you, which I think is really important as well. A lot of people hire people who are just like you. And that's your biggest mistake, you don't want to do that you want to make you want to hire people who aren't like you, so that they complement you.
So that your union Yeah, otherwise, you just hiring a whole bunch of points of view, then there's gonna be a big weakness in your team and in your skill set.
Petra
which comes back to being self-aware, and actually picking up on others. And, again, one of your biggest strengths is not just empathy, but being able to read others, which is why you can tell stories, because it's not about you. It's about the decision maker, the audience, the buyer, whoever it might be, what would they want? What do they expect? What is the biggest desire? Maybe?
Can you give a few more practical tips in terms of the messaging and also because you've pivoted your message for a speech, for example, how do you go about tweaking the same message, but coming from a different angle based on the feedback that he got?
Luke
I listened to the feedback, first and foremost, which is listening, not just hearing, but listening, why it's a no or or listening to the feedback is so important, and using that against that person then, so Okay, well, you don't like it for this reason, I'm going to show you why you're wrong, you know, in an egotistical frame of mind, but that's kind of what you do, you go, okay, you don't like this for these reasons, then I'm going to show you how I overcome those obstacles.
That's exactly how I how I do it.
So you know, if they say our will, the show is gonna be too expensive.
As an example, I would say, okay, it is expensive. But this much money you spend on sponsoring influences, to sponsoring other shows. And this is how much a TV ad will cost during the time slot we're going to be on if he was going to buy the TV. Now you add all that up, it's actually let now budget is less than what you're going to spend anyway, which is a really easy way to kind of win the argument.
So it's all about creatively thinking, whoa, how can I win this argument in the most respectful way possible?
Now, you're not always going to either if the if the IRS if their answer is a way, you can't, you can't win that argument. Because they're right, you got to acknowledge it as well. And that's a really good brand thing for yourself to say.
You're right, I didn't think of that. I didn't. But these are still why I believe this is a right idea because of x, y and z. But your concern over here is we need to think about this, I need to think about how we can how we can overcome that.
And so whilst I say I got rejected five times and I kept going, if at some point in the rejection was a firm No. And I couldn't actually find a way to overcome those knows that I wouldn't have gone back in and pitched because that would actually be really bad for my brand. Because because then it ends up being Luke's ego wants this show to be made. Not it's right for the business.
Petra
Yes, that's a really good point. Because you in the end, your message needs to be relevant for the decision maker not for you and what you just said it's objection-based marketing means you have actually thought those 1235 steps ahead that you may think it's too expensive. Let me show you what it actually costs. So you've also done the research and not have gone blind in there and just wanting to feed your ego and as you said correctly, sometimes a no is a good thing, because you just it's a flop.
Luke
Yeah, and Sometimes that's okay. And you got to pick yourself up and say, I didn't really think of those things and Okay, that's why you're my boss.
Well, that's you know, but that's okay too, it's really fine to fail like that, because you just then think of something else. And like, it's okay, that idea might be a really good idea another use time to use time, you know, put it away for a while. But if you can't overcome it, that's okay.
Just don't the biggest problem I see people, they just keep, keep going for it. And if it's a note to know, you know, and that's when you start annoying people, and people don't want to then take the meetings with you, and it becomes a thing.
And you don't want to become a thing. You want to be, as you said, their idea as well. And so I'm already bought in, it's my idea, I think it's great. So I don't need to convince myself, I need to convince them.
Petra
Exactly. And this is also, again, one of your biggest traits, that you're very likable, because you make it always about the other people. But you're always interested in people, you always pick relationships.
And this is what makes you also easy to remember and preferable. You're not just a great guy who does good video, because that's the worst introduction that we could give you. But if you say storyteller, who gets to the heart of the product or service or the person and makes you more money than it costs you That was the message that was like, this is his cmo? I'm a video producer. I'm a pushover as like a boring.
Luke
Yeah, that is one of my pitches is that whatever I cost you, you'll save that money.
Petra
It's so good. And this is exactly what the commercial decision maker wants. This is their language, not the creative language, who talks in, I can give you 61 minute videos and 20 seconds, blah, blah.
People don't know what that even means.
Luke
No, and you're talking to the wrong person. And that's tactics, not strategy.
So it's all about for me, it's about the strategy.
It's about, why would you want to work with me? What can I bring to the table? What can my team bring to the table? You know, and also, I always like to say, it's not me, it's always the team was that FlightCentre?
You know, being the head of a team, you always get the email from the execs, oh, well, download well done. You always I always tried to say thank you, the team did a great job. And I still do here, you know, we're a small team, there's that there's three of us in our company right now.
But, you know, having to grow and it's always about the team, it's not about just me. And again, it's ego. And I try not to to have that ego, because unfortunately, there is a very big creative thing, you know, you need an ego to get your creative ideas up. Because if you don't believe in it, then you're not going to sell it. So you do need that ego. But um, yeah, it's about the team is about recognizing other people's talents as well.
Petra
Being confident, but also being humble, and giving credit where credit's due. And that makes us a leader because they feel good about themselves. So they like even more, and they will do anything for you and give this extra you know, what's the worst effort the extra effort?
Luke
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I FlightCentre just have a thing, I had a rule that everyone was going home at five o'clock, I really wanted people to be going home at five o'clock unless there's a project that we had to work on needed the attention.
My reasoning was that everybody that had a family or friends that wanted to go home to family, friends or partner to go home to, well, if you can leave at five feet, and quarter past five, that means you get to actually spend some time with those people, which means you'll look forward to going back to work next day.
So it's actually selfish on my behalf of why I would do that. But the other reason was also selfish is that we could easily identify someone was incompetent.
Because if you're standing back, you're incompetent, you're there and competent, and incompetent a really strong word, but it just means that you need help, it actually means that you're either swimming with too much work, or it means that you're not skilled in what we're asking you to do.
So therefore we give you training we give you give you some support. If you've got too much work on we need to know why. So it's a really good way to identify a problem in the team. If we were like, why is that person staying back? What's going on? So yeah, it was, um, it was a it's about building that culture as well.
So because I've been in jobs where the culture was, you leave it you're leaving at six and someone's like, Oh, you you're offering an early mark. And I think that is the most horrible thing you could possibly do to another human to make them feel bad about staying, like leaving even later on than what the game paid for. It's such a, like, such a toxic culture to be in and I and when I got to the to the leader of a team, that was like, I never wanted to happen. I didn't want clock watchers, and I didn't want people who kind of not bullied but you know, I mean like this whole like this whole like, Oh, I stayed back to seven o'clock. So I'm so busy kind of mentality, which I think is absolutely terrible.
Petra
That was a story of my life. for 10 years, especially in marketing, where everyone is so competitive, and I love your success metrics that you say, if you can't manage it by then something's wrong. And everyone glorifies the hustle. And then 24/7 work.
What's the point?
You know, as you said, if you can't get it done in that time, you either don't have the resources you don't have the skills are something else is missing. So what can we do to make this work?
Luke
And that's about your brand, you need to be able to work with people who are like that, and tell people that because if you don't, you'll end up struggling and you'll hate your job. And you'll you don't have a good brand, because they think that you're, you've got a problem. So it's all about, yeah, and it's like, it comes down to empathy. And it comes down to the thinking the bigger picture.
Yeah, and I just I Yeah, same Petra, like I've seen so many times that toxic work culture of staying back, staying back working, having emails at 11pm, if one of my colleagues would email me and they're on holidays, I'd actually ignore it.
Or I just say you're on holidays, like, I and I'd cut them out of emails, because I know that you're on holidays, this is your time, you know, love that you want to jump in, but you're on holidays, take your time. And that's again, your brand. If you can't leave the office for a wait two weeks, four weeks, because your allocated leave, because you're scared that someone's going to take your job, or you know, people will think you're not a good employee, then you've got to look at your personal brand. And you've got to look at where you're working, to be honest with you.
Petra
Absolutely. And we've got so much more choices, it's just a matter of picking out what those choices are and what we can bring to the table.
And, you know, bring it back to the success metrics, we have to redefine what success looks like, because it's not longer to be in it's one career climbing the ladder retiring and then dying. In this one, Korea, it's not a thing anymore.
So stepping sideways, stepping, you know, even backwards sometimes to get to the next stage, it's not a bad thing. Sometimes you want to step backwards. So you've got more time for your family or your pets, your hobby, whatever it might be, that's also success. It's not just monitoring the status of the title. Nobody cares these days.
Luke
I mean, titles are just ridiculous.
You look on LinkedIn, some people's titles, and I just want to I just want to see what you're doing. I want to see who you are, I don't really care what your title says.
You can be the director of marketing. But if there's only like a tiny business, and, you know, you know, better I guess, then the janitor, like, and nothing won't be an agenda. Because I have friends who do that. And I they're lovely people, and they're probably far more interesting, and someone who's a director of marketing. And that's more interesting to me. So yeah, like, absolutely, I do think the world is changing, which is awesome.
We have like three main things in our business that we stick to. So one is family, we have a three year old and a 15 year old. When we're filming, our children come on set if we have to, but it's all about the family comes first. And that not just for us, but our employees as well, our employees, our people we work with and our clients.
We really take that serious and assign that is one of our key things. Because also, you know, my partner, so she's a mom of a three-year-old. So her career can't stop either.
That's another big thing for us, for the family from a family point of view. So sometimes I'll take a step back. So tomorrow, I'm, she's actually working all day filming, while I look after our job, and she's directing and doing her thing, I'll be doing the kind of admin and being at home with the child. We share it because it's like she's more passionate for that job than I am.
So she's doing that. So that's one thing. The other one is freedom and flexibility. So again, working really flexible hours. We were also like that we could live anywhere in the world and still do our job. Obviously we can't right now. But that was one of our things. And then the other thing was profit, you know, a fair profit. So not ripping people off, but having a fair profit. So not doing things for free, and not doing things where we're, you know, ripping people off blindly. It's all about a fair profit for the Fair Work.
Petra
And this is exactly what you want to be known for. It's what he just described your values in action. So when you have the various up the wall, nobody knows what it actually means. Oh, yeah, hiding behind the titles because they don't know what their values and their qualities are. But it's not memorable.
Nobody cares about that. But if you say family first and what it means is so and so you also attract the right people the right opportunities to you.
Because if somebody says oh, you need to be contactable at midnight when I want you it's the wrong client and you resent them you deliver bad work because you hate doing it. So what's the point?
Luke
Yeah, and you know, I've worked on the places where they've had the Yeah, the philosophies, floss, and it was amazing. Pfizer had their forces everywhere. And We lived and breathed and you could call, you could call people on it. Nothing I got that when we started our own business Flight Center was probably one of the best places I've worked at where they believe in the philosophies, and actually live them.
So like, you know, the head, egalitarianism was one of the big ones, which is they take you take your work seriously, but not yourself. And that filtered throughout, you know, and everyone's equal, and all that kind of stuff. That was really great. But I've worked in other companies, where even like their staff meetings, every means with the their philosophies, but if the CEO, you know, one of the philosophies were, you know, it could be like, you know, respect each other, but then the CEO can be yelling at people The next day, and it's kind of like, Well, hold on, you can't have the philosophies if the CEO is not going to live up to them. And title doesn't excuse you, for not doing the philosophies, you actually should be more accountable, then the junior marketing person
Luke
Exactly. As consistency, and I'm sure you will want to sign off on the on the philosophies, not the junior person in marketing. So you don't have one rule for yourself, you have one rule for the business. So yeah, and like, you know, that's kind of, you can still lose your cool and as long as you then go, Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. You know, I mean, that I'm not that kind of person. But, you know, that's, that's kind of snapping on us. Really, that's what it is. It's about being honest about yourself, and everyone makes mistakes, and everyone makes bad calls or make bad judgments. But you just got to look after you. You know, if you can do more good than you can do bad. I think you're a good person.