Metaphorically Speaking - Storytelling Through Metaphors and Analogies

Today's episode is another industry insider interview where we are joined by some of the brightest minds in their field who share with us their tips, tricks, tools and strategies, so we can fast track our learning process. This time we are joined by Joeri Schilders, also known as the Magic Sauce.

He's an innovation facilitator, storyteller and video maker. And for those who haven't seen his incredible videos and LinkedIn last year, you better get onto it as honestly, they are another level super entertaining and always so much value. I came across Joeri through a mutual connection shout out to Leanne Hughes. It was 2020 when the two of them partnered up and took their incredible facilitation and communication skills online and created a workshop called Virtual possible honestly, these guys set new standards for different events and workshop facilitation.

Joeri is our industry insider in the Future of Work Campus, and he will run our content deep dive, which is our hands on masterclass that we have every single month on a different topic.

Joeri will run our session on the 11th of May. So if you're interested in this topic, this is this session you definitely don't want to miss, you will walk away with a ton of actionable steps you can take right away and into this episode, we kick off the topic, Joeri shares with us already so many media tips and tactics to be more engaging as a speaker and as a presenter, mo matter what your role is.

He also talks about the importance of reframing situation so we can communicate a topic in a more relevant and relatable manner. Trust me, you will love the interview. And again, if you want to take this topic further, then make sure you mark the 11th of May to join this master class with jewelry which is life every single time it's live, but you can also catch up on the replay.

If you aren't a member in the Campus yet, you can still join us for this session early and you don't want to miss it. So hop over to futureofworkcampus.online for details and I hope to see you in the Campus.

Now. with no further ado, here is my interview with Joeri Schilders,

Welcome back to another Future of Work Campus industry Insider. This is where we are joined by incredible guests who share with us the tips, tricks, tools and tactics and how we can thrive in the future of work.

And today's guest has stood out for me since the beginning with his online presence and his incredible videos - Joeri Schilders is our guest and also our industry Insider for the month of May where we talk all about metaphorically speaking, storytelling through analogies and metaphors.

Because as we know, it's so much harder these days to stand out from the crowd and to get people's buy in because our attention spans are shorter than ever before.

So I'm really looking forward to this conversations. But before we get into it, Joeri, can you tell us a little bit? Who are you? What are you doing? And how did you get to where you are now.

Joeri:

Thank you for having me.

First of all, I really am excited and I'm even more excited about speaking about metaphorically speaking, we'll talk about metaphors and analogies. I'm excited as my cat after giving him cat treats. See, there was a metaphor.

My name is Joeri. I am Dutch. I've a Russian name. I live in Singapore. Before Singapore, I lived in China.

So I've lived in Asia more than half my life. And I run an innovation agency called Magic Sauce, where we celebrate innovation projects, typically for big clients. And a couple of years ago, I realized that a lot of the stuff that we were sharing the stories we were sharing, which used to be like paid speaking gigs. I didn't think there was a future anymore.

I don't think the company should spend 10s of 1000s of dollars of bringing in speakers where now with the click of a button you can you find anybody online I can I can log in and see what Petra is doing. I can watch talks of Gary Vee or other inspirational people around the world.

And that's when I started creating video content. So my video contents around how to engage How do you build ideas? How do you test your ideas? And how do you connect with the audience around you. And that's where most of my time goes for a lot of video making storytelling online.

Petra:

And this hits the head on hits the nail on its head straight away, especially last year when the world has gone online. Our common connection were actually was kind of the introduction between us, Leanne Hughes.

You partnered up with her for a project called virtually possible and I was fascinated by that concept because you guys, you are incredible facilitators.

And since we couldn't do it in person anymore, you just said, Oh, you know what, we can do the same thing, if not even better online. And this was just the beginning of a new era, I would say.

So what would you say in the last 12 months, especially has changed for you and also in the world in terms of communication facilitation presentation? What's new?

Joeri:

What is new?

Of course everybody's working online, everybody's struggling to connect with people the same way they did in a physical space.

There's a lot there's a, there's many more tools out there.

There's tools coming out every day to help us, I guess, facilitate a better conversations, which I think is awesome. I think we're still missing a lot of the really basic things, I think what's happened is some people may have taken the same content, which may not have been engaging in a physical setting, and have just now put a camera on them. But it doesn't quite work that way.

So part of what Leanne and I did with virtually possible, which is all about how do you facilitate so our target audiences, facilitators, trainers, coaches, and consultants, the a lot of the focus was on reframing the way we think.

So taking exactly what works in the physical space might not work in an online space.

And I noticed, for instance, through video making, so I've been on YouTube for a couple of years, now I've got a really fast growing channel.

What I've noticed is what I used to public speaking before, let's say you have somebody in the room for 45 minutes, they pay tickets to come some event, you kind of have more footage, they can't really leave. It's a bit it's a bit impolite, right, so imagine you're speaking petrol on the first row, I'm just kind of gonna sit through this, I'm not gonna walk up in the middle of your talk and walk away. But online, everybody does, you can because you might not see me and I can click away and I can play with my phone, or I can go pour myself a cup of tea or whatever it is.

And because of that, I realized that people have not only a shorter attention span, you just need to communicate in a different way, there needs to be much more attention grabbing content, their thinking to be able to keep people's attention.

If you can keep somebody's attention on YouTube video for two and a half minutes, that's already an accomplishment, just so you know, most people click away after about seven seconds.

So we combined all these things which we saw from people on YouTube people on social media. And we combine that with how do you then facilitate a better conversation on strategy around innovation around around supply chain management, whatever the content is.

And I think that's where the real change has been, I think the ones who've really been able to re frame and rethink the rules around meetings, trainings, clinics, workshops, webinars, those are the ones that I think have done quite well. I think a lot of other people have really struggled with it. And I felt the the overwhelm.

So we're just at the beginning. I know people are going back to the office, I don't think the future is everybody working from home. But why not for many people who work from home for 10 years. I love it.

And for a lot of people like me, you've been working from home, this wasn't that new, and I think we're living better prepared for it. So I think that's that's where the exciting part is, I think we're just just beginning we're just figuring out how all this works. When we got better tools, better platforms, better skills and better examples, to create better conversations, whether it's online or offline.

Petra:

I love that you said we need to reframe how we actually have those conversations. Because yes, we may go back to a physical work environment. But at the same time, companies are also building more and more global teams, which means that not everyone sits next year. So having those virtual conversations and a digital presence is not something that you can have in luxury anymore, it's a must have. At the same time, it's also the closest that comes to a personal interaction. And this in the end is what builds relationships and builds trust.

So you've taken that completely to another level, which is so good to see. And you also came up with some tools that you included, and you keep people's attention. And even though we're talking about an online environment, and you again, spot on with online, we can just leave offline, we can't necessarily do it. But we are distracted by so much noise out there.

And there's everyone these days as a publisher, so what would you say?

What does it take for us to keep somebody's attention? Maybe not even for two minutes, but maybe for one minute to start with? What do we need to do?

Joeri:

The very cliche, but I'm gonna repeat them anyway, because I've struggled with this for many years. I think a lot of people are still struggling with this.

The first one is, again, this is not rocket science who you're targeting. It's if you if you're going to go online, a lot of people say well, there's there's, you know, why, why should I go on YouTube or LinkedIn, it's so saturated, true.

It's also saturated with a lot of mediocre content that is just blasting everybody rather than having some kind of focus. So the easiest thing again, it's easier said than done, of course, but it's finding an audience like who you're talking to.

One way to engage people, is to figure out who you are talking to. Because if I use the same way of communication with my Australian neighbor here, who I think is about 35 years old, some It looks like a rugby guy versus Chinese grandma on the other side, and a little kid playing over there, I'm probably going to need to have different communication, because to engage them might, might take something different.

The first thing is absolutely finding out who your audience is, and finding out finding out what they're all about too many people want to be for everybody. And it's probably the biggest mistake, because if you everybody you for nobody has like a standing in the middle of the street and going, Hey, nobody's gonna look up for that unless I talk say, Oh, hey, that you girl there with the black shirt that says, Oh, hey, they're on it. And you go, Oh, me.

Now I'm talking to you. And once I didn't engage in conversation, if you can't figure out what you're about, then you can find out how can I help you?

How can I help you get further?

And then the second one is, and again, this is not new does not me this is I think this is Zig Ziglar. You give enough people what they want, and you'll get what you want.

It's not about you.

One of my biggest mistakes in the beginning was I would waffle on too much about why because I didn't think I had the credibility. So I'll start off with saying, Hi, my name is Joeri. And I'm really interesting. And I'm doing interesting innovation things. And it's really interesting.

Nobody cares.

Give them give them what they want, give them something, either, either educational, either you solve a problem for them, or you or you entertain them. There's only two reasons why people go online, I don't want to be entertained.

But I want to solve a problem. So given that, so those are kind of the really rudimentary things. But still, I see so few people doing that everybody thinks that having 100,000 subscribers or 10,000 views on your posts on LinkedIn is gonna matter. I believe it's exactly the opposite. I believe it is in finding a very specific audience, knowing how to talk to them and and really focusing on them because if you find your tribe, they're gonna listen to you. They're they're gonna get involved and engaged.

Petra:

So good, because you know, even though they are the basics, we always come back to basics, because there is always another tool out there and a new appear and a new, whatever they are.

But in the end, we are still talking to people. And I think even though you mentioned virtually possible was targeted to facilitators,

I think facilitation is becoming more and more a key skill that every single person in the workforce needs to have. It's about facilitating conversations and getting everyone on the same page, especially when we're distributed and we have only 10 minutes, huddles online hands, does everyone know what they need to do? what's expected from them, how it's going to be measured by when they need to have everything done by it's so important.

Joeri:

I think facilitation should get out of the hands of a few special people with a special title.

Facilitation was you were a facilitator, you dress in certain way looks one way, anybody listening right now you think of a facilitator, you probably have an idea of somebody, you have a picture of that person, and how they speak and how they walk and what they do.

And that needs to change because that's often a very narrow view.

Rather than looking at facilitators, facilitation is a skill

Facilitation, to me just means that you make stuff easier, it comes from the French or facil, making things easier, but you're basically making decision making easier, communication easier, having ideas easier.

That's all you're doing when people interact with each other.

It's tough because of a million different reasons because of cultural elements. Because of knowledge gaps between people, a facilitator makes that a lot more palatable and easier.

That's what facilitator does. To me, and that to me, especially now we're all working online, is more important than ever before. And I'm still baffled. they don't teach more of it in business schools,.

I find it really basic, we learn about we learn about profit and loss statements, we learn about basic basic change management, why don't we learn more about facilitation should get out of the hands of you know, the five people from the HR department, it should be a basic skill people have

Petra:

Absolutely agree.

And you mentioned that facilitation is all about making things easier.

So also, when we as a project manager, facilitate a conversation or stand up paddle, or a project meeting, for example, it's about making it easy for everyone to understand where we at what do we need to achieve? what needs to get done by them.

And this actually leads us into the actual theme and topic also for me, which is about metaphorically speaking, because you also mentioned that we've got more difficulties, actually, with having cross cultural teams now that everyone's got their own cultural interpretation of communication.

But actually, or, metaphorically speaking, get people on the same page. Can you talk a little bit more? What does actually metaphorically speaking mean?

Joeri:

So a couple of things, metaphors, analogies and stories, whether that's a joke, or whether it's an anecdote or something.

As far as I know, it just helps people remember things easier.

So if you want to give people information, you can give them loose details, loose facts, or you can package that into a story and turn into an analogy.

Like when you look at a painting, you can look at a painting and see an entire story just for one glance at a painting. That's kind of what a metaphor can do as well.

Now, whether a metaphor is referring to whatever a movie title, it's a bit like this. That's usually what I say, what is this project like a bit, it just helps make that information easier to understand.

And often through through cultures, it becomes easier to understand what's going on or to understand the problem.

If you use a metaphor, or maybe even a visual or an analogy, because that's when people know, it just draws closer to people.

And anybody who's a decent storyteller will probably use lots of metaphors and lots of analogies.

A friend of mine has his, as his theory says, whenever people start speaking in metaphors and analogies, there's a lot more emotion involved, so that there's something emotional think about when you talk about something.

If you come back from work, and you describe your work, as you know, some hellhole or a political minefield, which is a metaphor, yeah, you're comparing, there are no mines in the office.

I hope not at least.

But if you say that your workplace is a minefield, where you probably going to feel that way, you're probably going to feel that you can't walk around freely, and you have to watch out everywhere. If you say, you know, my workplace feels like, like, going for coffee with my friends, cool, you're going to feel very differently about that. So just by using a different analogy, we can describe things in different ways. And anybody who's a decent storyteller just knows how to do it.

Because metaphors and analogies grab. on the emotional side of things, we can connect with it better. And often it transcends into different cultures, unless you're using a reference which nobody understands.

Petra:

Yes, it's a good point that we are painting pictures for others, because they can't necessarily see or experience it in a way that we can do.

But when I say so, you know what it feels like going on the beach and feeling the sand between your feet? Like, Oh, my God?

Of course I do.

And as you said, it's then the emotions, and this is what makes stories stick and memorable.

This is why storytelling is becoming more and more important to stand out. Because no one can compete with your story.

But having said that, you also said before, it's easier said than done.

Talking about storytelling, are there any tips that we can incorporate to become better storytellers for ourselves, to get people on the same page for our project meetings, for example?

Joeri:

Sure, so one thing I like to use is just it's reframing,

it's looking at anything, let's say you want to, let's say you have a meeting, and you want to pitch an idea, you have an idea of how to make that project better, whatever it is, look at either the project or your solution, or the people or the situation and just ask yourself:

• What's this like a bit?

  • Is this a bit like a film I've seen before?

  • Is this a scene from something?

  • Is there a song that represents what's going on? Is there a visual?

  • Is there a picture that this reminds me of?

To me, it's one of the easiest ways to start thinking in metaphors.

And then the second one is, once you do that, it's about not overthinking it too much. Because you might get into Well, it's just exactly what I meant in the film. And no, it's a creative process. It's but it's allowing your brain to make a connection between seemingly unconnected things. And one way of connecting, that is looking at a situation where you see it.

And comparing that to something else. I remember a story that my, my old boss, Chris told me, once we were in a meeting, a leadership team meeting was a lot of problems going on this innovation project.

And they asked everybody to create a drawing about how they were feeling about how the project was going.

So we gave him a piece of paper.

And one, one person in the room drew five circles of top down think an A4 piece of paper, five circles. And then the first four circles had an arrow to the right, and the last circle, arrow to the left. And when explaining this person, and this is how I feel, that's everybody else pointing that way. I'm pointing in a completely different way.

So it was a clear misalignment, which then open up the conversation, and then they at least found a way forward to include this person more and you know, but that person was somehow not able to explain that if it wasn't for using in this case of visual or something like that.

So think what's his likely bit and they use anything? I have no rules I used to all the projects I've run in the past we've given it some names.

I remember what we did for big bank in Hong Kong. We call it I’ want to break free’

And then we use, we use like Queen shirts and like Queen analogies and going on tour and being Freddie Mercury and being a rock star.

We use all those metaphors in there, which is a really great way because this is 2000. And I think 2014. And that entire team still talks about that, because it's easy to remember, it's not that one credit, that one project we did around whatever private banking is project, I want to break free.

And we had the visuals and the colors. And people still talk about that today. Because it's easy to remember, that's a great example of how you can use metaphors and stories or even pictures.

Petra

And that's good, because that leaves a legacy behind because you just said they're still talking about it. It's more inexperienced and a project. And people want to be part of something that's exciting. That's new, that's different, and bigger than just another project.

I think you also mentioned a really good point that you said, take it a step further and think about what is it similar to which comes down to empathy and making the complex, simple, which is such an important skill. These days, we're getting bombarded with information, we don't need more information we need to be able to implement. And by explaining it in such layman's terms, or stories and metaphors, it's much easier for people to grasp it and paint their own picture with this.

Joeri

Yeah, I agree. I agree.

So a great a great analogy on that one is, so in 2000, 2019 2020, I used to get lots of A's to get called law for innovation projects. And one of the big mistakes which I made because I did so many projects, I didn't spend a lot of time on networking.

So people would always call me because I was here in Asia was an exciting error area of the world is 2008 2009, it's at the height, everybody needs something different. The spreadsheet consultants is not going to cut it anymore, we need something drastically different.

It was the right time I place. And I was young, fast. I could facilitate in four different languages with one of which is Mandarin, I did not have a lot of competition. And what happened was because I was so busy doing the work, a lot of your listeners can probably relate to it. Sometimes we get so busy doing the work.

We forget about the business side of things. We get we get to network, and then we come off this high of doing lots of work and who isn't where's the next projects where the next project is going to come from.

And I compare it I said it's a bit like it's a bit like being an A, it's a bit like being a Hollywood star in the 80s, who's really big and all of a sudden disappeared a bit and then makes you makes it come back later on through Quentin Tarantino film. That, to me is an interesting metaphor, which I used before and all about reinventing myself and you know, getting out there.

So that's it's as simple as that it's as simple as looking at any situation and going What's this like bed? What song Am I thinking of? If I were to draw a picture that depicts is what would it be? Let you let your mind wander a bit. Again, there is no one right or wrong right way. But if you look at anybody who's a comedian, and he storytellers, they will use metaphors or loss metaphors and analogies a lot to help tell that story. So it makes it easier for you to remember you create a better experience.

Petra

And I think this is also why memes are so popular because it's so freakin funny and reliable. It's like oh my god, the wobbling penguin who falls over on the iceberg on a Monday morning. This is totally me. And you know, we just remember that forever. Yes. And that also brings some personality in because we don't need to be all very stiff, very professional, People are over it.

Joeri:

I think so i think you know, we talked about authenticity. But interestingly, with as much as we talk about authenticity, I still don't see a lot of it. People want to be authentic, but only in that one specific way. So they're very tried to kind of not show the other parts, I think by being authentic is by being a bit more vulnerable. And I know people talk about it. But I think it's a good good way to practice because the more people do it, the better, the more useful. We're gonna get to it. And I think that will create less stress for people, I think they will open up people a bit more to new opportunities. So just being Yeah, being yourself and kind of allowing your yourself to shine a bit more, I think will definitely be a step forward for the entire world.

Petra

It sure is. But you know, fear of rejection is still the biggest obstacle in why people don't put themselves out there because they don't want to be seen as you know, not capable or they make a mistake here or they're not perfect, because they are comparing their chapter one to somebody else's chapter 20 has been doing it for 10 years. And so, but this is the only way to stand out and also you said practice, practice. is practice. Now is there any exercise and obviously we going a lot more in depth with in the workshop how we can actually practice it. But is there any tip trick or tool exercise that you could recommend anyone to just get their creative juices flowing and start the storytelling?

Joeri

Acting!

I've an avenue video coming out next week with a lovely guy called David pullin. We talk about improv acting. And improv acting is not really seen in a business sense.

But it is one of the most ultimate workouts for the brain. Because what is what is improv acting? improv acting is the ultimate Yes, and is the ultimate, let's build on what is there.

And let's see where the story goes. Letting go of any kind of outcome that you need to have control over where the story is going to go.

You start a story, I build on it. And we see where the story goes. You learn to play with whatever comes at you and use that in a way rather than dismissing or judging it. To me, it's the ultimate thing. It's scary.

It's a little bit weird. It's super creative. But I think it is an ultimate skill for anybody to learn. I used to do little improv acting exercises, particularly with really senior leadership, and senior leaders who would often be snickering and laughing while we were doing this.

And because I'm very Dutch are very direct. I remember telling a group I said, You're laughing because you can't do it.

Your reason you're mocking it, and you're, as Australian say, taking the piss out because you can't do it. Right?

So the way, the way to now deal with it is just to mock it and kind of have a jolly, but it's hard. It's it requires your brain to be more flexible. It requires it to make connections, those analogies and metaphors. That's exactly what that is. It's allowing their brain to go a bit further than that little box and say what else is out there that I can use as inspiration. So improv acting, is something that you can practice you can join a school but it's just something that what if I do this with my girlfriend or something I do this with friends All the time. And fun little improv acting, by the way is PowerPoint karaoke.

If you have not seen PowerPoint, karaoke, you know what that is?

It is so much fun PowerPoint, karaoke. Imagine the I prepare six slides for you. You don't know what's on the slides, and you prepare six for me. No rules, right? You bet six slides for me. We get up in front of an audience and we turn on the slides and whatever is on there, I need to talk around that.

Right. I don't know what's in the slide. So I'm going to talk through a presentation. It's called PowerPoint, karaoke. It is hilarious, best enjoyed with a glass of wine or with a beer with your friends. But it is a great way to practice improv acting.

Petra

And you know, in the end, it comes down to combining so many human skills from imagination, to creativity, to listening to communication to empathy. And, you know, everything is in this one situation come bind, which is incredible. This exercise.

Joeri

Exactly, because it's, yeah, imperfection has been around for a long time, I think if it's, it's just a really good exercise for the brain.

And the sad thing is, I think it's often used.

I've seen it used in business where it's for that once a year for the staff kind of thing. But again, like facilitation, I think it's a great skill to have.

And anybody who innovates anybody who, whether you're an engineer or an architect, anybody who innovates, who makes things will understand we'll know how to use that that improv muscle, maybe not in this, maybe not in a let's square silly hat.

But the principles are the same. They ask questions, what else could it be? How else could we make this happen? What is this like a little bit? How can I combine A with B? How can I go tested? Those kinds of things? Those are the questions that they ask. And those are ultimately the underpinnings for any anything that's innovative and real breakthrough.

Petra

So good. Now, before we wrap up, one question that I ask every single person is have you got a favorite app or tool that is your gold, so for whatever you are doing?

Joeri

Fantastic, I'm going to do exactly the opposite you know, whatever you do, do the opposite.

Whatever you think think the opposite. I think everybody has so many tools around them. I think everybody has so many platforms around them.

I did a quick calculation the other day how much I spend on all the platforms because it will cost like $12 a month, $15 a month they all add up.

We have a lot of platforms, you have a lot of tools.

My my suggestion here would be get rid of the tools for a bit and just go for a walk with a cup of coffee.

Take more take more like slow down a bit more rather than rather than chasing tools. Because again, I think there are a lot of tools out there and I have tools, which I like using recently, I feel like I'm a bit overwhelmed by the amount of tools and by the amount of platforms that we have around us that I'm working really hard to do the opposite.

So I take time for slower thinking deeper thinking during the day, that comes from going for a walk, sitting somewhere drawing something, I have adult coloring books, which, you know, is a nice little way to distract your brain. I think it's doing exactly the opposite.

So, yeah, rather than having more tools, I'd say get rid of a few and slow down their brain a bit.

Petra

And it can get so overwhelming because everyone says, Oh, you need to try this, and you need to try this.

And then there's so much external stimuli that we don't even hear in our thoughts ourselves anymore. And then we are one of many, and this is exactly what happens that we can't stand out anymore, because we're just trying to be someone who we think we should be.

Joeri

And there's a new one every week, there's like, there's a new platform coming out every week for somebody else who's got the whatever do Uber for online meetings, or, you know, productivity tools and hacks and stuff. And you know, what hacks are cool.

You know, let's, all forget about really basic things. I think a lot of a lot of goodness, for the soul for the, for the business, for the wallet for your customers, comes from slower thinking from just not grabbing the tools all the time.

Just take a step back slowing down. I think a bit I think that's probably good idea of people moving forward. And then I think that might help with the overwhelm that people are feeling because I think people are overwhelmed. I think a lot of people are looking for new ways to grow their business,

I think that can be very exciting but also very daunting.

I think the world has changed, the world is still changing for many people, a similar lockdown, a lot of people are feeling overwhelmed.

And maybe the tendency may be is to find more and better ways to hack and to cut corners and to be more productive, which, you know, if, you know, good for you, like if that works, I think that sometimes actually overwhelmed.

So I'm getting rid of a couple of things and getting rid of a couple of decisions, getting rid of a couple of activities, to give myself more time to think and be bigger in metaphors or not, but to to allow that creative brain to work better and to think deeper. better future.

Petra

Again, it's something that everyone should get better at and should be, you know, used to use a lot more but traditional education doesn't teach us it. So we need to jump on and do things differently and offered it so I'm really excited about this. Now to wrap up, where can everyone find to connect with you learn more about what you're up to?

Joeri

Fantastic. LinkedIn, Joeri Schilders hope it's in the show notes. Because my name is very hard to spell. You know, it's the easiest one, it's just to look up the magic sauce. If you look at the magic sauce on YouTube, Yuri at the magic sauce, you can find me on YouTube, that's where you can always find me YouTube or LinkedIn. A lot of content out there a lot of free stuff, maybe something useful in there for you if you like creative things, if you like making ideas happen if you like things on how to engage your audience. They're always light hearted you know, I use cupcakes and and my cat and like different things and props around the house to help with their storytelling, but also make it very practical for people.

And they have to vouch for you because I love your video. I love your style. I love your production quality. It's always entertaining, and so much video. So highly recommend follow him on every channel, you can find him. And of course, join us on the 11th of May in our live workshop. Now, thank you so much for being our industry insider and sharing so much video. I'm really looking forward to learning more about you and from you.

Absolute pleasure, Petra, I really, really appreciate you having me here and I'm looking forward to getting into metaphorically speaking.