How To Land Your First And Next Board Role

Today's topic is a topic that's been requested a lot. It's also one of the most common reasons why my one-on-one coaching clients work with me, they are ready to take their career to the next level, and are eager to join a board of directors. Now, once they have the experience and the credibility, and they're ready to make a bigger impact and work on a more strategic level, they often miss out on those opportunities. This is where we usually meet because they realize that simply being the best at what they do, does make them the best at landing a board role. 

So the question is, how do you break through and land your first or your next board role? This is exactly what we discuss in this week's episode, where we are joined by someone who literally changed the trajectory of my career, john, john helped me to get my foot into the Australian job market by placing me not just in my first but then also in my next marketing role. 

And this is now nearly 11 years ago, it's been incredibly inspiring to see john going from strength to strength. And he's now specialized working with executives and board directors, on helping them with their career progression, you will hear he's an incredible fountain of knowledge. 

And since this topic is one of the most requested ones, we will take it up a notch and host a live workshop on the 14th of October. It is a free lunch and learn session where we go through the stages of the board application process, how to prepare for it, and also what you can expect when you are on a board. I put the link in the show notes. And we would love to see you there. If you can't make it live. Don't worry, we've got you covered, you will get immediate access to the replay. 

So with no further ado, here is my interview with john hotrod. being better is not good enough anymore. 

Petra

Now there are not many people who I would trust with my career. But today's guest is certainly the one and only I trust blindly. Shawn haltered is joining us today to talk all things executive recruitment and board recruitment, what's the difference and how we can get started. 

Jon and I have known each other it's going to be 11 years, next month, actually. And I owe him a lot. He got me into the Australian job market. And he literally placement my first and my second role. 

And he knows a thing or two about relationship building and the careers and how we can stand out. So with that, john, thank you so much for joining us

Jon

Petra, when you put it like that, it really is it's been quite a journey for us. Over the last 11 years. I remember you coming over as a new person off the plane. So yeah, thanks ever so much for the opportunity to talk to you today. 

Petra

Anytime I'm a massive fan of you. And one thing that has always stood out for me was your ability to build relationships and to network, which is probably one of your secrets. successes here. 

Now Have you always been like this? 

Jon

Yeah, I mean, it's been something that I always have enjoyed doing and being naturally pretty good at. I think as like most things in life. If it's something that you do in your work, you tend to refine that skill over time. I think maybe earlier in my career, when we talk about relationship building, it was very much off the cuff. 

You just would find a connection with somebody something in common, you know, be interested in the other person. Then as I've kind of progressed with my career, and then started dealing with more and more senior clients and candidates, there's a lot more preparation that starts to go into meeting people before you are trying to build a relationship because you probably have less time in order to build a relationship and then it's about a higher level of trust. 

So some level of background research, prior to meeting with people is really good and an old mentor of mine said, make sure you're the best prepared person that they meet with because that will give you an infinite edge over your competition. 

Petra

This is definitely one of your biggest strength because you're always extremely interested and as the saying goes ‘You're interesting for people when you're interested in them’. And doing the homework and preparing for an interview and for a meeting is always the best way how you can build the relationship and the trust. 

And you also said you have developed obviously into more senior recruitment and executive recruitment, especially since COVID hit what have been the changes in the job market from the jobs going down, not existent to now being back on a high, where do we sit? 

Jon

Yeah, the main the job market has been absolutely incredible. Think back to a year ago, and it's just a complete 180. So, so a year ago, I think Australia for memory was sitting about 14.6% unemployment across the board. 

Clearly, our first recession for 30 years, some of the green, dark and miserable place, lots of people being Furlong lots of people being put onto job keeper, you know, clients saying, 

Well, clearly, we're not looking at hiring anybody and making mass redundancies, and fast forward 12 months, and it's the complete opposite issue. 

And I was I was talking to somebody earlier this week, and we were discussing why the market is as red hot as it is at the moment. And it's pretty much down to one or two reasons, probably one is some no immigration.

So you realize suddenly, that Australia as a country, is so heavily reliant on immigration to fill skill gaps in the economy. And so I think, where the pain are sitting at 4.6% unemployment, which is really very, very close to full employment, so effectively, anybody that wants a job, can get a job. 

And then the second thing is this massive transition to a technology driven work environment. So again, if anybody has anything to do with the technology, job market, you'll know that it's absolutely flat out at the moment. In fact, businesses I work in our technology team are actually starting to turn work away, because we don't want to give people the impression that we can find people that almost don't exist. So anybody listening, if you're a software engineer, you pretty much have the perfect environmental operating environment. 

Petra

Wow, that's so interesting. What are the changes in careers?

Obviously, you said anyone who is in different tech, they are red hot and in demand? Have you seen any other changes when it comes to the skills in demand and careers in demand? 

Jon

Yeah, well, I think that anybody that can really point to a central part in transformation, you know, it's a very widely used term and transformation. But every business is going through either a digital transformation or a whole business transformation, effectively just looking at different and more efficient ways of doing business or structuring your organization's.

So those are, you know that they are absolutely key and critical issues. I think the other thing that I'd say is that when I kind of talk to clients about themes about what they're looking for, it's really interesting, because it's never really around hard skills.

It's all about soft skills. So they talked, we talked about stakeholder engagement, we talked about integrity and honesty, we talked about resilience, the ability to bounce back, when things don't go your way. 

We talked about servant leadership, and we've talked about strategic insight, you know, all these things that that probably a lot of people that may be listening, do but can't necessarily articulate a message of where they've done it, or how they've done it. 

So certainly, when you're going out into the job market, being able to really clearly articulate your soft skills is a much more difficult thing, probably for most people then articulating your hard skills, you know, your hard skills are your day to day job, your soft skills are the things that actually make you a great employee are a great person to work with.

Petra 

This is, again, where personal branding comes in. It's being aware, what are your strengths and those soft skills that you can apply? How have you applied it? And more importantly, how will you apply it in the next environment because nobody cares about what you've done previously, when you can't relate it to what you can do for them and how it benefits them. And I think this is why people are falling down. 

They are so much focused on their achievements and whatever, but can't make a create context around the importance what it means for this next environment. 

Jon

So I think being able to articulate how well you've done it is actually really important. So in any job interview, let's say, people will ask you where you've done it. 

Being able to very clearly and succinctly answer that is actually really important. But I think where you're going is probably the value proposition. So what's your value proposition? So why are you different to the other four people that that client is going to meet with over the next two days. 

And so having a really clear articulation of, you know, what, what you are and how you go about doing is clear, then, and then that leads in really clearly with personal branding, because clearly, when you are going out to market, you are saying, This is me. 

So every piece of thought leadership, you either write, or you like, what you share, or every kind of post that you put up, if it has a consistency of what your value proposition is. And people can clearly understand what it is that you're bringing, exactly, and then picking it up with examples how you've applied it previously, and not just claiming that we're good at doing something. 

But there's actually some substance and some not. 

Petra

And you also mentioned, leadership is one of those skills that we need to demonstrate how has leadership changed? And what are the skills that we need now as a leader in this, I don't want to say, new world of work, but next world of work? 

Jon

Yeah, well, I mean, the new world of work is one way of putting it is obviously over the last 12 months, leadership always has been such a face-to-face thing. And leading via zoom or teams is incredibly different. And particularly leading a meeting, where there might be 25 people on a zoom call is really challenging, and very, very different to keep people engaged. You know, your do you insist that say that people keep that camera on when you're in that sort of environment? Or, or do you not? 

So I think the way that leadership is evolving, is clearly it's evolving to reflect the generations that are coming through into the workforce. 

So giving you the way I'm Generation X, alright, so relatively old school, I suppose. But but the you know, you then have Gen a, just sort of Gen Y, Gen, Zed, millennials, they're all coming through with different needs and requirements. And it's understanding what the leavers are that push individuals. 

So, and that can be generational, and I don't want to kind of generalize too much. But you know, for, for instance, you know, all the research shows that, you know, a lot of people under 30 are driven by a sense of purpose, you know, they, they need to feel a connection to the place they work and to the individual they report into. So, you know, the biggest thing I always think in terms of leadership over the last couple of years has been servant leadership. 

Your job as a leader, is to serve the people that work for you. And so that is, sometimes that is doing their, you know, being in the trenches with people and doing the less glamorous stuff, it's a really good example is a place where I work the MD, you know, doesn't make a big deal of it. But I often enter the dishwasher. You know, it's a job that you think I shouldn't do. But, you know, it's a deliberate thing. 

You know, it doesn't make it deliberate. But deliberate is a deliberate thing to show people. There's no job in this business that I will not do in order to make the business successful. So and people really buy in buy into that, because the last thing they want to see is a is a leader that feels that they're, you know, beyond doing the jobs that you're doing self 

Petra

Love it. And it goes to show that leadership is an action, it's not a title. And we don't need to have the official title that we lead people in order to step up. And we see one more because you also talked about the transformation of businesses, we see flat hierarchies, we can't necessarily climb the 568 stages to get to the top, maybe it's more lateral. 

So leadership is also the ability to influence within the team to get people across to get the buy in of the board or the executive team for a project to get the budget for something. This is all leadership, even without the title. 

Jon

Yeah, I mean, that leadership, I mean, there's been hundreds of books written about leadership. And so there's different styles of leadership. And you can you can point to certain individuals that are great leaders.

But I think most people probably get excited about leadership when they think about one person that maybe is affected their career. And I certainly I know I've had a couple of absolutely great leaders, both of whom were very different. But I kind of take the best bits out of what they did and put it into my game and hopefully, a lot of it is about mean that the word that I love, and I know you do as well is self-insight or self. So being self-aware of how you're being perceived by other people, and constantly looking for feedback on that, because how you are perceived is how you are. I remember, a very early mentor of mine said, perception is reality. 

Petra 

And it's so true. And again, coming back to personal branding. The perception of you, is what you put out there. Now, that's the reality is another thing, but that's what people will think of you. 

Jon

Exactly. their perception and your reality may not match. But this is also where we want and need to be self-aware and say, Where are the gaps?

Why do they think that way? And what can I do to change this perception? Because it's all what, as you said, we put out there online, the continent, we talk about people, we surround ourselves with the clothes that we're wearing, it's all interconnected.

Jon: correct, you're spot on. 

Petra

Now, I want to shift gears, and I want to talk about board, board recruitment board appointments, and also the difference between executive recruitment and board recruitment.

Can you give us a little bit background? What is different? Why should we care? And how do we prepare for it? 

Jon

The difference in all recruitment and exact recruitment is pretty stark, to be honest, to do exact recruitment. Most people I'm guessing that listening to this would be aware of, you know, there's two types of processes that I've generally run. One is a advertised selection process. 

So we would run an advertising campaign, people see it, they apply, have conversations, go through interviews, etc, etc, and get to an outcome that the second part of an executive search will be pure search at hunt. So you'd get a phone call out of the blue from me asking whether you're interested in opportunity. 

If the opportunity sounds interesting, then you engage in a conversation and you follow through the process. And that's really how probably 95% of the recruitment processes work, that executive order is different. 

Now, I will get bored briefs, so and so chair will come to me and ask me to hire a non-executive director. But it's probably a smaller portion of the work that I do. A lot of the time, board recruitment is incredibly well networked. So it will be around people that other board members know, they might go to the AICD - Australian Institute of company directors to ask them Is there anybody that you know that that's available or looking. 

And it's just a random in that you talked about personal branding, it's actually making sure that you are really visible to the market that you are looking and available and wanting to have a conversation, because it tends to be a less formal process a lot of the time, you know, you wouldn't necessarily be going to two, three interviews, psychometric testing, you know, all that, it's usually conversation, maybe a couple of conversations, maybe a couple of informal references, and off you go. 

It's less of a formal process. 

Petra 

You made two really good points here that I want to emphasize. Again, it's visibility to the right people and the networking part here, because it's all about trust. And the higher you go, the less it goes through a formal process. It's all about who you know, who you trust, and who is available. And visibility means that you are top of mind or you want to be top of mind. And, like with so many executives to say, Oh my God, I've got 25 years experience here, I still don't get onto boards, or it does not just happen like that, if nobody knows of you, you can't be considered. 

Jon

The point I make on that. And it's so true, is has a real Australian stroke English thing or Anglo Saxon thing, right? So it's the inability to want to showcase your own skills, right. So in Australian English culture, modesty and humility are two wonderful, wonderful traits that everybody you know, aspires to, however, and this is where it becomes a difference between Australians and Americans are great at marketing themselves, right? 

And they and they hold every meeting with how can I help you? How can I do this? How can I do the other with we're not very good at doing it at all. 

And so, if you are doing let's say, if you're at a networking function, or you're at a meeting, letting the other person know that you are really keen to either start or expand your board career, nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with that at all, because and the point I really clearly made, and I say this to everybody I made other people want to help you. I know that when people come to me, I love that feeling of helping somebody do this. I love my job is because placing light helping you when you came from Australia is such a great thrill to impact on somebody else's life. 

Well go to somebody and say, Hey, listen, if you know if you hear of any board roles, and then they go, actually, and then they either tell you about one or they refer you to somebody, or they feel like they've done a good thing. 

So what I make is, don't be frightened to ask the question, don't be frightened to put things out there. Because people will want to help you. 

Petra 

Such a good point, you can't get what he can't ask for. 

Sales kind of has a bit of a dirty kind of, you know, people all day like selling, selling, it's just effectively just telling people, this is where I'm at. And if you don't say it, it's never going to happen, right? People aren't just suddenly going to stumble upon your will, they might, but it's more unlikely. But if you're putting yourself out in and having multiple conversations that end with, if you hear of any board opportunities, I'd love to know, then, you know, it's it's much more likely to have a good outcome. 

Petra

Absolutely. I think one of the biggest challenges, however, is also not knowing when I'm ready for the first role. How can we decide? 

We are ready, we've got enough experience, we've got enough education. Is there a timeframe? Is there an age? 

How do we decide? 

Jon

Yeah, I think that's Well, yeah, there's no probably correct answer here. I think the way I'll answer that is probably it always depends on your own personal circumstances in terms of whether you can, in a lot of ways, because most people when they're on the kind of way up, if I could put it that way in terms of their career. So let's say 20s, early 30s, you are so focused on building that executive career, let's say, well, whichever creative gone down that career, you may have a lot of other competing things in your life at that time, as well. 

And so time is your biggest enemy. And so then to whack for role or to on top of that, all of a sudden, your life is gonna get really complicated and really super busy. 

You know, the kind of general kind of, you know, I have most of my conversations with people that are probably mid 40s. 

Plus, they've kind of reached a certain point they feel, suppose what does happen when you reach that point is you generally had good exposure to the strategic elements of of any business. So you would have, you know, you would have operated at a level at which you are having an input into a complex or an organization's strategy. 

It also probably coincides quite nicely with the fact that your life may be slightly less complicated than it was 10 years ago, that site. So there's a few things. Having said that, it's the same, I always say it's a bit like becoming a graduate again, because you never think of anything you always think and be surrounded by people that are just amazing. 

But actually, what ends up happening is the new you walk into a boardroom, and you suddenly realize that there's somebody who's really good at governance, and there's somebody that's really good at digital transformation, somebody that's really good at, you know, financial accounting, but if your skill is is strategic marketing, nobody's going to hold a torch to you for that. 

So, you know, everybody will always bring something and you won't get off on a board role, unless what you bring to the table is what they're looking for, I'm not going to offer you the role just because you're a nice person. 

Petra 

That again, comes down to how do you protect yourself? What do you want to be known for? What are your natural strengths that you can bring to the table? Are there with boards? Are there certain structures who need to spill certain skills are how do we, as a chair, build a board?

Jon

It depends a little bit. So let me just clarify this. There's two types of roles one paid and paid, right. So nonpaid, quite often, they will take what they can get, right. So if it's not paid people, you're doing them a favor, right? So that's how you build your experience. Generally speaking, then when you move into paid roles, then what we will do is we'll Build a skills matrix. 

So a skills matrix will be pretty clear. You know, those those areas that I kind of talked to around corporate governance, risk accounting, legal marketing, technology, property, sometimes, you know, that type, but they're the kind of really broad figures. 

And when you go down a board, each individual will have, you know, tips across the areas that they're strong at. So what you're trying to do in that skills matrix is, is really tick off as many of those as possible. 

So, you know, for instance, you know, I know that there's a lot of businesses out there at the moment that that really do want digital experience. So now, that's something that's really going to be clearly very beneficial for you if you have that experience, and we'll maximize the number of opportunities that get run past you.

Petra

Excellent experiences, obviously is one thing that we've got exposure in our professional life to the more strategic elements of running a business, what about the official education? Do we need to go through and get a board? Directors certification? 

Yes, no, maybe. 

Jon

For Non paid, you could probably get away with not having it with with pay ones, you almost certainly have to do the Australian Institute of company directors course, I would recommend it to be honest with you, even if you even if you are thinking of doing it. Now, just to pay people for the shot, it's not cheap. 

So it's between five and $7,000, depending on whether or not you're a member or non member, but it certainly will give you a much higher level of confidence for start in terms of your ability to contribute at the board level. 

And also, you know, probably de risks yourself in terms of your knowledge base a little bit. The other thing, this is probably a little bit of a plug for the AICD but they are actually really good at doing a lot of professional development activities. 

And that does include networking events, which as we said earlier on is probably really useful. Actually, just as an aside, I'm a member. And clearly part of my job is to meet people, and I'll pop myself up 123 Eagle street in their in their business centre for an hour each week, I'll just send some emails, and almost invariably, I will bump into somebody that I know that that is potentially a useful person to know. So it kind of coincides. So the aicd, for me is definitely the one. And quite often when I'm given a brief for pay board role, that will be a requirement. 

Petra

Like which comes back down to your first point, you made visibility and networking being in the right kind of environments to be visible to the right people. 

Jon

Absolutely, exactly right.

And it's some, it's just, it's actually quite interesting. It's almost like kind of, you know, putting the pieces of the jigsaw together, really.

So you kind of you meet somebody, and then they kind of go Okay, well, they, they know that and so and so you, you can kind of put the pieces of the jigsaw together and make sure that it kind of works for you, if that makes sense. 

Petra

Absolutely! Now we've got the experience, we've got the education, how do we now find the first board role? 

Jon

That’s such a good question. But again, I think it probably comes back to the things we've been talking about. So you get the brand out there. 

You do that online, you do that face to face, you probably do network with the right people as well, in terms of the recruitment industry, there's probably not that many people that specialize in it, there's probably only about three or four players in Brisbane, that are kind of do that much. 

The one organization that I that I do know that does a really good job is directors Australia. So they're probably want to be aware of and they will get briefed on good roles. Plus, also they do write some really good thought leadership around board, you know, or issues and being so they're a good business to probably have an involvement with as well. But again, it comes down to you know, when you're speaking to people just making sure that they know that no matter where you're at, you know, I'm definitely keen to look at non paid roles, or I'm really keen now that I've had two non-paid roles to look at a paid directorship. 

So, again, it's a little bit like sales 101. The more the more conversation The more fingers you have in pies, the more things happen and the more that your phone starts to ring. 

Petra

And I think this is what so many don't realize that it's still a numbers game. mentioning it once doesn't make any difference. It's about this continuous conversation, what you want to do, is having conversations with the right people, and putting yourself into those situations, we can't wait for opportunities to come to you because it's just doesn't happen. 

Jon

And that's, it's really interesting, because most of the exacts that I do remember that our sales role, which is fire, fire fall, it's just bigger than sales. So never done sales, you don't get used to asking the right questions, you don't get used to a certain level of rejection. And then once you've been rejected going back, you know, so you're all these things are really, really important. 

And they're kind of they're skills that you learn really easily as you as you get older. But assuming or thinking that it's just going to come your way, is probably not a strategy that's going to have a great outcome for you.

Petra 

And to be honest, it doesn't only apply for board roles, it also applies for any opportunities given we have to transition not only jobs, but careers more often, we have to pitch ourselves more frequently. 

And to build this kind of portfolio career to get more exposure and experience quicker and don't have to wait two years, working here two years working here and so forth, we have to get used to those rejections. 

And clearly, recruitment is the best playground to get rejected because you make 100 calls, and you get nine as rejected. But you know what, you keep going because of those 10. And people who have those kind of environments, they struggle with this idea of but I've already applied for 10 roles for incident two. 

Jon

And you know what I did, you know, I love that idea of buying for roles. So for instance, and I say this to everybody, though, you know, I'm kind of in the rejection, right. 

So if I run a executive role, I'll on average, get about 250 responses. So I'm going to have to reject 249 people for that job. Now, some of them are unbelievably well qualified, really, really good at their chart. It just happens that one person is just perfect. That doesn't mean you shouldn't apply the next time or the next time or the next time. But it also shows that, you know, I'm not talking my own industry. 

And I'm also saying there are different ways of doing x y, which is have a look at you know, that network, if you actually can speak to somebody have a good conversation, you can always get a job without even having to go through a formal process now that's suddenly you got a one in one chance rather than a one in 250 chance? 

Well, they're pretty good odds. All right. 

Petra

100%. Now, which also brings us into our marketing assets, when we want to apply for executive roles or board roles, do we need a traditional resume? is a cover letter, still a thing? Do we need to have a different kind of marketing asset? How can we present ourselves? 

Jon

I will preface this by saying you ask 10 different people their opinion on this, you can get 10 different answers. Okay, so what I say isn't necessarily right. And what I would say to most people, especially except, who've got lots of experiences, think about what you like to see when you will see resumes and you won't go too far wrong. So, executive resume, keep it simple. Lots of whitespace not too many words, use bullet points, make it chronologically accurate. 

And start with the most recent and work your way back. Put dates on everything, including your education. And then make sure that each role you have responsibilities and achieve responsibilities is what you did ciments while you're good at it, and the more numbers and facts you can attach to that. often asked question, how long should it be?

I'm actually less fast than most simple say one or two pages. I just failed to see how if you've got 40 years experience will fit into that. I'm pretty comfortable four or five pages for somebody that's probably 25 to 35 years experience or resumes. Yeah, it probably just needs to be a bit shorter and a bit punchier and a bit more around top level stuff. They're probably not that interested in day-to-day tactical work that all we're interested in is where is your broader skill set. Where have you been involved in making large scale strategic decisions because when you say on a board, that's all you're deciding on, you're not deciding, you know, what sort of tea they have in the kitchen, you know, you are deciding big ticket items that will affect the business's strategy. So just make it only that shorter, and a little bit more high level. 

Petra 

Excellent. In the end, we're all time poor and the quicker we can get to a point and can demonstrate why we are the best for the role, the easier it is to get in. And one 

Jon

Last to tiny point here is, don't overthink it. People put so much time and effort into fonts and this, that and the other and none of it makes me different. 

Try writing Times New Roman is fine, you know. So he did ask me about cover letter. I love cover letters. Personally, I know that some people don't. I just think if you can articulate why you are good for that particular job. It's a bit of a no brainer. For me, it just makes it really clear that you understand what the job is and why you why you go for it. And if that's a page and a half, that for me is a page and a half really well spent. 

Petra 

It also helps already with the preparation for an interview because everyone will ask you, why should we choose you? I'm just saying I've got 25 years experience. Okay, so that's every one. 

Jon

You're so right, it prepares you for all sorts, because it's, it's getting you thinking in the right place. And if it's wrong, it's probably not the right job for you anyway, so 

Petra

But it's also good learning to get some feedback and saying why was I not successful? Yeah. Anything because you said, there's sometimes this one person who's perfect for it, even though we've got 249 other incredible candidates? What are the criteria that you go for to choose? This person would be the perfect fit? 

Jon

Well, that just completely depends on the client brief. Right? So you know, most of the time is around? Well, there's a couple of things here. So the first is, you know, how far do you get in the process. 

So, you know, of 250 people, I can generally look at about 190 and go, Well, you don't really fit what we're looking for, that's fine, that just that just to varying degrees, then once you get down to a top 60, then then it becomes more around what the client said. 

So some clients are really big on tenure, people who've stayed in their role for good periods of time. Some clients are really big around the industries, that must be the industry, they must be currently working in the industry we work in, and it currently might be around a technical issue or whatever it might be.

I think you just what I wanted, what I would say to people is, if you want to avoid feeling frustrated, make sure you really read the job advert if it's a job advert that you're applying for. Because if you read it and don't really fit it, horse, you're absolutely able to apply. But don't be surprised if you then get out. Yeah, thanks for both thanks letter, you know, a couple of weeks later. 

So you know that that application process is really, really important. The other thing I point out, and this this, I think Mark spoken to you about this privately before, is actually constantly amazed. I will always put my phone number on a job advertisement. And out of 250 candidates though, why? 

I reckon maybe 20 will actually call up and ask me. Okay, so what exactly you're looking for, just tell me about what the job is and what the for. 

And personally speaking, I will always have a little thing on my on my candidate tracking system, which I put effectively little tick by those people kind of go Well, you've actually picked up the phone and actually found out what this job is about. Now, it may not get the job. 

But they've all automatically gone a little bit further that way to get closer to being successful transferring through. 

Petra 

And this is also part of building your brain doing something that others don't do and going the extra mile because as you said, hardly anyone does it. So when we do it, we stand out straight away. And yes, this person might not be the right person for this one particular board, but doesn't mean that your next opportunity would be perfect. 

And you also mentioned it comes down to the brief. We shouldn't take it necessarily personally then we are rejected because maybe the personality, the background experience just doesn't fit. That doesn't mean we're bad. It's just not the right opportunity. And which comes also down to realizing what is it that I actually want to do just because there's a board role and it's a vacancy, and I wanted to doesn’t mean I should take it.